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  1. #61
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    If you look at OMD as Marvel saying “we need to move characters back into their best/most known/intended/successful... and so on”. Or DC’s Iconic move some years back. Then we now have the consequence. Characters are over a semi-long span looked into a established state. You might have a story where a character does something but after that storyline has run it’s course it’s reset time.
    With a focus on a certain number of characters we are further stuck in what seems a locked state.

    New characters are created. Books come along. Both are lost in a sea of relaunches. Little advertisement. No real long term commitment from Marvel also creates a similar response from readers.

    I used to read Spider-man but OMD soured me on that title. What is the allure of picking it up again. All I really know is that it’s stuck in a Peter Pan syndrome where the only 2 rules seem to be that Peter can’t marry MJ or that new changes will be undone sooner rather then later.

    I would love to say that it’s not comics that have changed but it’s me. That I have grown up. But it’s not. I’m just not interested in the same stories over and over again. Never was.
    Last edited by Malachi; 09-11-2020 at 05:38 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    If you look at OMD as Marvel saying “we need to move characters back into their best/most known/intended/successful... and so on”. Or DC’s Iconic move some years back. Then we now have the consequence. Characters are over a semi-long span looked into a established state. You might have a story where a character does something but after that storyline has run it’s course it’s reset time.
    With a focus on a certain number of characters we are further stuck in what seems a locked state.

    New characters are created. Books come along. Both are lost in a sea of relaunches. Little advertisement. No real long term commitment from Marvel also creates a similar response from readers.

    I used to read Spider-man but OMD soured me on that title. What is the allure of picking it up again. All I really know is that it’s stuck in a Peter Pan syndrome where the only 2 rules seem to be that Peter can’t marry MJ or that new changes will be undone sooner rather then later.

    I would love to say that it’s not comics that have changed but it’s me. That I have grown up. But it’s not. I’m just not interested in the same stories over and over again. Never was.
    What Marvel should have done was end Earth-616 instead of creating OMD. If Marvel do not want Peter Parker married, they should have created a new universe that takes place after the first Secret Wars. This was the timeline where MJ was in limbo. However, Marvel has made Spidey into Batman..
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 09-12-2020 at 06:35 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    What Marvel should have done was end Earth-616 instead of crating OMD. If Marvel do not want Peter Parker married, they should have created a new universe that takes place after the first Secret Wars. This was the timeline where MJ was in limbo. However, Marvel has made Spidey into Batman..
    That has been my belief for some years now. That they should have mapped out a 10-30 years plan for the universe. Then have creators guide the invidual stories over the years. While giving new talent oppertunities to alter things as the years roll on. While still staying true to the master plan. The story for the MU as a whole.
    For the X-men have a specific larger storyline with mutants and humanity. Have a number of crossovers that happen during that story that involves other heroes and parts of the MU. Then actually keep those consequences. Perhaps mutants really are feared the last 10 years of publication.

    With Spider-man you have actuall stories that are the true last stories. Say he fights Electro for the last time with 5-10 years left of the stories. Making us feel that there are real consequences and progression. May dies and stays dead.

    In general i Like the sense that there is a continuity that spans back to the start but so seldom that is used in any way that is anything but superficial or fan pandering. Cameos. There must be another way then the mess DC is in with to many reboots and marvels insistence of replaying it's greatest hits in window that seems to shrink as the years go on.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Wouldn't mind seeing Daredevil in a space adventure, actually. I've been hoping to see that for a lot of street level characters for a while. I'll always appreciate the street level guys fighting in alleys, warehouses, and sewers, but I think it would be cool to see them in the Savage Land, on Hala, in the Dark Dimension, the Nexus of All Realities, or the dystopian future of Deathlok. That shows that they are versatile and can go into any situation.

    Honestly, I think that's one of the reasons why Spider-Man is so successful. He's essentially a street level character, but can have a story anywhere. Those street level characters that have that little extra power set, like Luke Cage and Iron Fist, Cloak and Dagger, or Ghost Rider, I could see them have great stories in these environments!
    Personally, I feel that Spidey should move on from being a street level character. He should be on Jason Arron's Avengers run. If a street level character like Blade can be on the team, why can't Peter Parker? For one, I would like to see Peter Parker(not as Spider-Man) work with Carol's Avengers. It's time that the members see what Peter Parker is all about.

  5. #65
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    I personally think that Marvel's EVENT comics are maybe the least creative thing they do. Every thing else I think is actually creative. People have mentioned the X-men stuff and Hulk as examples, but I think you can include titles like Zdarsky's DD, Aaron's Thor run, the new Venom stuff has struÁk a chord with his fans from what I hear. I think there's a lot of stuff out there right now. Whether you like it or not is another thing, but they're certainly not out of ideas.

    I think even looking at the last 10 or so years you have some good stuff that (personally) I'd re-read before anything from the 60s/70s.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack The Tripper View Post
    I personally think that Marvel's EVENT comics are maybe the least creative thing they do. Every thing else I think is actually creative. People have mentioned the X-men stuff and Hulk as examples, but I think you can include titles like Zdarsky's DD, Aaron's Thor run, the new Venom stuff has struÁk a chord with his fans from what I hear. I think there's a lot of stuff out there right now. Whether you like it or not is another thing, but they're certainly not out of ideas.

    I think even looking at the last 10 or so years you have some good stuff that (personally) I'd re-read before anything from the 60s/70s.
    When was the last Marvel produced a Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk series? While I have mentioned, Spider-Man & She-Hulk working together as a partnership, the same could also work out between Peter Parker and Dr. Bruce Banner. I certainly would love to see Banner working with Dr. Curt Conners as well in the pages of Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk solo series respectively. I still do not believe that neither Jennifer Walters, Bruce Banner, or Peter Parker have reached their full potential as character, unlike those of the manga Bleach, One Piece, and Dragonball Z respectively..
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 09-12-2020 at 04:34 PM.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Honestly, I think that's one of the reasons why Spider-Man is so successful. He's essentially a street level character, but can have a story anywhere. Those street level characters that have that little extra power set, like Luke Cage and Iron Fist, Cloak and Dagger, or Ghost Rider, I could see them have great stories in these environments!
    Spider-Man is not a street level hero. I think it really says something about how limited modern comic fans are that if a hero goes on patrol he is automatically steel level.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Spider-Man is not a street level hero. I think it really says something about how limited modern comic fans are that if a hero goes on patrol he is automatically steel level.
    He is the go to example of Marvel street level hero. If not cleaning up crime, what else is he doing? Batman has been crucial in numerous crises and is still the go to example of DC street level. What do you think Spider-Man is and what is your criteria for street level?

  9. #69
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    Prior to the MCU, I don't recall the term "street-level" being used. It seems to have started being a thing once Disney decided to create a caste system between the Avengers and the Netflix heroes. The way they treated MCU Daredevil and Luke Cage and Jessica Jones trained us all to think of them as "lesser". Then the caste mentality got imported into comics and that's why some Avengers will talk about how a villain is "not big enough" for them or "below their pay grade".

    Spider-Man arguably highlights the classism inherent in the "street-level" label the most. He is stronger than most Avengers and has fought villains that are on par with the Avengers, but also interacts with everyday people more than they do and is therefore "street". The implication there is that being in touch with the peasants on the ground is what ranks you as "street" and below the Avengers by extension.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-12-2020 at 08:38 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    When was the last Marvel produced a Spider-Man & The Incredible Hulk series? While I have mentioned, Spider-Man & She-Hulk working together as a partnership, the could also work out between Peter Parker and Dr. Bruce Banner. I certainly would love to see Banner working with Dr. Curt Conners as well in the pages of Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk solo series respectively. I still do not believe that neither Jennifer Walters, Bruce Banner, or Peter Parker have reached their full potential as character, unlike those of the manga Bleach, One Piece, and Dragonball Z respectively..
    I'd personally argue that what we're seeing in Immortal Hulk right now is the peak of the character, or at least leading to it (admittedly I've not read an abundance of hulk stuff). I would also say that I don't think team up mini series' are the best chance of injecting characters with creativity. I think the only time I've really enjoyed a team up book was Astonishing Spider-man and Wolverine, but in my eyes that was an outlier. In my opinion team up books mostly lead to non essential arcs for characters

  11. #71
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    He is the go to example of Marvel street level hero.
    No, he isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    If not cleaning up crime, what else is he doing?
    You...do know that Spider-Man is a superhero right? Superheroes fight crime, it's what they do. You have a very broad idea of what a street level hero is. Why don't we try this, name some heroes in the Marvel Universe that you feel are "street level"

    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Batman has been crucial in numerous crises and is still the go to example of DC street level. What do you think Spider-Man is and what is your criteria for street level?
    Well, I made it clear that Spider-Man is not a street level hero and you bringing up Batman makes that even more obvious. Besides Spider-Man what heroes do you feel are steel level?
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #72
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Prior to the MCU, I don't recall the term "street-level" being used. It seems to have started being a thing once Disney decided to create a caste system between the Avengers and the Netflix heroes. The way they treated MCU Daredevil and Luke Cage and Jessica Jones trained us all to think of them as "lesser". Then the caste mentality got imported into comics and that's why some Avengers will talk about how a villain is "not big enough" for them or "below their pay grade".
    Interesting. I remember (who am I kidding, I don't really remember it was awhile ago) the annoying term coming into vogue back when Bendis was in his prime at Marvel. This was when he was teamed with Maleev (never cared for Maleev's art, always looked like posed mannequins) on Daredevil.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    No, he isn't.
    Sorry, but the ball is still in your court.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Sorry, but the ball is still in your court.
    Nah, pretty sure the game is over and I won since you used the example of Spider-Man fighting crime as a justification for being street level and used Batman as an example.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Interesting. I remember (who am I kidding, I don't really remember it was awhile ago) the annoying term coming into vogue back when Bendis was in his prime at Marvel. This was when he was teamed with Maleev (never cared for Maleev's art, always looked like posed mannequins) on Daredevil.
    It sounds like Bendis used it in a different context. Daredevil maybe fits "street-level" the best because he literally operates underground. He goes to a lot of neglected places where even most heroes won't go (or at least won't go as often), so it maybe makes more sense.

    'Street-level" as a class of heroes is kinda elitist, though. Even Luke Cage and Jessica Jones were Avengers at the same time as they were "street-level" in the comics.

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