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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    For me it just a risk of Flanderzation of the show. It was bad enough when one of the main story lines seemed to be building up to "Who will sleep with Daryl first Beth or Carol? And how will Carol or Beth react when they find out the other slept with Daryl first?" Now they are hinting at selling the show as "Daryl's gay! Can he find love in this world?" If that becomes a main focus of the show I don't see the show improving. For me and people like me the main interest in the show is watching our tribe (the protagonist) surviving the zombie downfall and dealing with other tribes (like the hinted at cannibals of this season), and not the exciting squeals of the ship wars.
    But why do you care then? Why do you have a rooting interest in any of the tribes if you don't care about them as a character? It's hard to me to imagine caring about a character without getting to know them or seeing what the character cares about. And that means seeing them love, and lose, and have emotions. It's exploring the inter-personal relationships that builds that emotional connection to the character. To me, that is how you get attached to a character and care about what happens to them.
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  2. #32

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    The relationships really do keep the book interesting, and some of the relationships have really made things interesting. Take Tyreese and Carol's relationship, it was bleh at first but when he cheated on her with Michonne, that lead to Carol becoming suicidal, which lead to Rick and Tyreese coming to blows and their friendship never being the same, and it lead to some crazy moments like when Carol wanted to be Rick's other wife, and then when Lori was like "fuck no", that lead her to bang Hershel's son and then suicide, and her suicide then affected Hershel's son which of course affected Hershel on some level. In short, these drama/soap opera relationships, without them, the comic would be bloody boring because it would just be Rick and whoever else killing zombies over and over, and after awhile that gets boring.
    Last edited by Deviancy; 08-18-2014 at 09:05 PM.
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  3. #33
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capuga View Post
    But why do you care then? Why do you have a rooting interest in any of the tribes if you don't care about them as a character? It's hard to me to imagine caring about a character without getting to know them or seeing what the character cares about. And that means seeing them love, and lose, and have emotions. It's exploring the inter-personal relationships that builds that emotional connection to the character. To me, that is how you get attached to a character and care about what happens to them.
    Care about them as characters? Why do I need to be rooting for a shipping war before I begin to care about them as characters? Hard at it is to believe today, many of the "greats" developed amazing characters without running into the 90210 phrase of ship wars that engulfs many mangas such as Naruto for example, and which I fear may engulf the Walking Dead fandom even more if the hints of how they are selling the upcoming story arcs is any clue.

    Arthur Conan Doyle was able to create the most famous fictional detective of all time, along with a constant series of books and short stories even when he no longer was interested in writing them. He tried stopping once but was pushed back into it because of the call of the public, and the interest of his own bank account. Doyle did this without boiling down "relationships" to simple half hearted who's going to end up sleeping with whom shipping. Sherlock himself shockingly doesn't so much as express a true sexual desire for... well anyone. Despite what the Robert Downey Jr movies may make you believe. Mr. Doyle on the other hand, knew that he was writing detective stories, and light adventure novels firmly having his character blossom in that setting. He created compelling characters set them up in compelling situations and never had to develop a "Betty or Veronica" storyline to sell his stories.

    I sadly can't say that Mr. Kirkman's show hasn't at least hinted at such a "Betty or Veronica" divided in the past with the "Beth vs Carol" ships. The fact that their are still vocal fans on each sides who argue the points can prove to the ease of "building up" story lines in the style, but for my personal taste it is rather cheap. I'd hate to see it get any worse then it already is. As I said in a previous post I believe Daryl Dixon's character is best expressed as an asexual man who has never grown to adult hood maturity wise, and still in many ways lives in that age where many young people accept things as absolutes and live their lives accordingly. To see them take a character and twist it now to bring in more viewers solely who are drawn to the change of character because of sex, I find it to be an annoying idea that doesn't match with how the character has been presented so far in the past. Instead of true character "growth" its more of a fan service.

    The Walking Dead has been at it's best when it's moved away from cheap "ship bait" story lines. It's at its worst when it forgets that it is ultimately a survivalist world. If as promised earlier this year, the next season concentrates on the horrors that a near or absolute humanity ending events has on the survivors lives I will say that this season will be a success. If instead we move more towards the "who's sleeping with whom" claptrap that some portions of the fandom wants it won't be as successful in my opinion. I am not the only one who complained about season two being "stuck on a farm" well the horrible "Rick-Shane-Lori triangle/who's Daddy? storyline" dragged down the entire theme of the story.

    I did not like the Beth X Daryl build up, nor how it created two shipping groups in the fandom who are still very insufferable on other boards. Nor do I look forward to the idea that the theme of the survivor's despair and small triumphs of will well facing the terrible destruction of the entire human race, being pushed back in the future just so we can watch an undercurrent of "who does Daryl love?" take over the airwaves. I didn't like it when it was being pushed with Beth or Carol and I will not like it further if it involves anyone else and begins to become a larger theme to the lost of more interesting arcs. That is not why I watch the show. At it's best the Walking Dead show works when it deals with the realities of surviving in the apocalyptic environment it's set it at least in my opinion. Our tribe against the walkers and other tribes of people, that is what the story is and should always be about. "Who is character X going to sleep with/ Who's the Father" type storylines are not what I want to see front and center.

    Concentrating on the horrors of the Walking Dead universe is something I think the Telltale Games do very well, and is why it is so beloved by so many people. Character's are built and story lines are created without a single love triangle being forced on us as the main point of the game.

  4. #34

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    Why do you keep saying there are ships in the Walking Dead?

    And what kind of ships are in the Walking Dead than I'm not seeing? Are they like the SS Minnow?

    And there are shipping wars in the show and comic?

    Damn, I must have missed a few issues.

    If "ship" is nerd slang for something, my apologies. But I don't keep up with nerd slang so I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to your obsession, or should I say dislike, of ships.

    Oh, and for the record, the Telltale games have relied a lot on relationships, just not always intimate ones. The reason people loved Season 1 so much, especially based on all the fan art on Deviant art is due to the relationship between Lee and Clementine, and the reason so many people were sad at the start of season 2 is because one of favorite couples, her man got killed. If it wasn't for their relationship, I think people would have had less emotional attachment to him. And the whole Carver thing was due to a love triangle, if it wasn't for the love triangle between Carver, Alvin, and Rebecca, Carver wouldn't have hunted them down like dogs. Also, a lot of fans wanted to see Lee hook up with Carly in the baddest way, Telltale just let them down.
    Last edited by Deviancy; 08-20-2014 at 03:46 AM.
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  5. #35
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Default Shippers ruin everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deviancy View Post
    If "ship" is nerd slang for something, my apologies. But I don't keep up with nerd slang so I have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to your obsession, or should I say dislike, of ships.
    "Ship" is short for relationship. In the "nerd" context we are talking about a "ship" is when a considerable part of the fandom start to use activist like tactics to support a romantic relationship between two or more fictional characters in a franchise. Since this is a comic book board, I'll start with a comic example. In DC comics today the biggest "ship war/shipping war" is most likely between the people who want Superman to be with Lois Lane, and those who want him to be with Wonder Woman. By "ships" we don't just mean that they are interested in the characters together, but indeed they want the main storyline to begin to revolve around a romantic and sexual characterization of the couple to the point that it becomes the main driving focus of the stories that are told. Which is why you now have a book series like "Superman and Wonder Woman" for the SMxWW shippers. In the past for the Lois and Clark crowd you had Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane, and the series The World of Metropolis.

    The largest manga example going today is Naruto, which if you go on any Naruto fan forum you will inevitably find on most fanbase message boards a place (often titled "fanclubs") where people talk about nothing more then whom should sleep with whom. Now if you don't know, Naruto is a Japanese comic set in a world of super natural ninjas, yet despite the fact that one of the comics main driving point is about children who grow up and kill each other, we still have a kind of strange high school melodrama being pushed by some members of the fanbase, to the point where it even overtakes the setting the manga is suppose to be in. It's to the point where a large part of the audience isn't even interested in what the story is suppose to be about (a world where ninja with super powers exist and fight amongst themselves) and have instead turned it into "Naruto loves Sakura! No he loves Hinata, Sakura belong to Sasuke! No Lee is Sakura's man! Duh Naruto and Sasuke are gay and love each other you homophobes! We aren't homophobes your anti-feminist because you don't want to see strong female characters!" And no that isn't far off from how the fanbase reacts to each other, firm lines are drawn and people defend their ships and the main storyline be damned. The minute the author tries to set up certain aspects of the story that has nothing to do with any ship a large portion of the fanbase will start crying that Kishimoto is ignoring the main reason people read the story (because of their favorite ship) and not only that, but that he is likely doing it because he has some kind of emotional hang up. For example he hates gay people, or he hates women, or he hates men, or he doesn't know how to write because XYZ didn't happen, or a thousand of other excuses. Which in the end makes the fandom more divided then Japan was during the Age of the Country at War, with each sect/ship determined to prove that they represent the true spirit of the manga(comic), well also forgetting that ultimately the story just started about a funny kid who wanted to be the best ninja in a world where ninja's exist and have super powers.

    Oh, and for the record, the Telltale games have relied a lot on relationships, just not always intimate ones.
    No it doesn't. Not the way I am talking about them. Not in Season 1, nor in Season 2 has their been any storyline that depend on who your player character feel in romantic love with. None. It hasn't mattered at all. What romantic and sexual relationships that have been hinted at have only been there to further show the terror and horror of living in the setting of the Walking Dead and have never been the main driving point of the story line.

    The reason people loved Season 1 so much, especially based on all the fan art on Deviant art is due to the relationship between Lee and Clementine,
    Lee and Clem are not a shipping situation except amongst sick pedophiles. Again shippers are a group of fans who are only interested in the story so long as it starts to revolve around the romantic and sexual relationship of two characters that they like.

    and the reason so many people were sad at the start of season 2 is because one of favorite couples, her man got killed. If it wasn't for their relationship, I think people would have had less emotional attachment to him.
    Lee wasn't Clem's "man", don't be gross. She was his daughter figure and he was her father figure. Clem was 8 and Lee was 37 in season 1. She was in the game to make you think more about the moral choices of your actions. Do you kill the cannibals who tried to eat you like they deserved, and in order to make sure they don't terrorize innocent people again? Or do you let them live so you don't terrify the young child that looks up to you as her Father figure, trying to instil in her some resemblance of traditional morality of right and wrong, despite the fact that you may no longer live in a world where those once common values matter anymore.

    And the whole Carver thing was due to a love triangle, if it wasn't for the love triangle between Carver, Alvin, and Rebecca, Carver wouldn't have hunted them down like dogs.
    Your hinting on something, but I don't think you understand that you had. The Rebecca- Alvin- Carver love triangle had nothing to do with shipping. It was never built up that way and instead was used to set up the events of Season 2 Episode 3. What do I mean by that? Carver was the antagonist of that episode, his evil ways had to be known by the player, and their also had to be a reason for him to chase after the player. They could have just made him a no nonsense slaver, but Telltale rarely makes characters who are that dark. Instead they made his point if not moral at least understandable.

    Carver's drive as a character was that he wanted Rebecca back. He wanted Rebecca back for one reason, he believe that the baby was his. It got so far that even if you tell him that it's "Alvin's baby" he says he doesn't care, cause it was his now. It was a driving point of his character. He wanted to protect who he consider his family, and to raise them as he saw fit so they would survive in this desolate universe. He wanted his child to survive and live on in the tribe he created with his ideals.

    Beyond that Rebbeca-Alvin-Carver didn't matter in the lest. In fact the main point that they have in the story is that they bring a new innocent life into this horrible world. You see that's why all three are dead now. Their "ship" didn't matter to Telltale, at all that wasn't the point of their story arc. Their point of their story arcs was to set up situations the player had to live threw in order to further the ultimate setting of the finally, which is that we are in danger with an innocent babe in a zombie Apocalypse, how will we react? Will we continue to have Clem act like Lee, or as Carver warned will she slip further into darkness to protect what she cares about just like he did.

    Also, a lot of fans wanted to see Lee hook up with Carly in the baddest way, Telltale just let them down.
    Luckily Telltale understood that it was making a post Apocalypse/horror game and not a dating simulator.

    To make my point as clear as possible, since their seems to be so much confusion let me state this. I don't have a problem with characters dating, or having sex with one another, or whatever else if it moves the story along. What I am worried about happening especially because of the way they are selling the upcoming season, is that romance and sex are going to be pushed further into the forefront of the story well the horror of the story is pushed further in the background. Like what happened during the second half of season 2, sometimes also refereed to in the fandom as "WHY ARE WE STILL ON THIS F'N FARM TALKING ABOUT WHO KNOCKED UP LORI!!! WHY ISN'T CARL IN THE HOUSE!!!! WHERE ARE THE DEAD!!!! WHY IS SHANE STILL ALIVE???" lol

    Why though are they hinting at bringing up romance and sex to be one of the driving forces again though? So they can appeal to a vocal minority of the fandom, such as those who have been pushing for Daryl to hook up with SOMEONE (Beth/Carol) hell ANYONE. I don't want to see the series turn into this shipper crap, the way other franchises have been hijacked by that type of fans.

    Keep it simple. The Walking Dead is a story line where we follow a new tribe as they attempt to survive the horrors of the end times that are populated by hungry corpses, other tribes, and moral difficulties.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    Lee and Clem are not a shipping situation except amongst sick pedophiles. Again shippers are a group of fans who are only interested in the story so long as it starts to revolve around the romantic and sexual relationship of two characters that they like.
    Um, nowhere in my post did I say those on Deviantart, or any of the fans elsewhere, were totally interested in Lee and Clementine's "sexual relationship", I clearly said that a lot of the fans were interested in their relationship. You do realize that a friendship is a relationship, and parenthood is also a relationship, right?

    Relationship:
    1. the way in which two or more people, groups, countries, etc., talk to, behave toward, and deal with each other
    2. a romantic or sexual friendship between two people
    3. the way in which two or more people or things are connected

    And Telltale's Season of TWD leaned heavily, very heavily, on Lee and Clementines relationship, and Kenny's mannerisms have continued to evolve, or should I say, de-evolve, due to every relationship he's had has gone to shit. Katja, the woman he had a romantic relationship killed herself, which played into his behavior, and his son, who he had a parent relationship with had to be put down which hurt, and now he's lost his new woman, so he's a total mess. If they put less emphasis on all of his relationships, he wouldn't be even remotely interesting, and if they didn't put as much detail into Lee's relationship with Clementine, I'd have been sick of the game by episode 3. However, I do agree that the Telltale games don't focus more on the relationships than survival, and when it comes to the games that's ok with me. But when it comes to the show, I have no issue with the show devoting more time at times to the relationships of the characters than the horror or action because it's a show that AMC has said numerous times they plan on running for as long as humanly possible. That means they have every intention of keeping it going for maybe 10-14 seasons, and if so, they have plenty of time to spend a half a season here or half a season there to put relationships in the forefront and the action/horror in the background and then change things up as the season progresses.

    And for the record, Season 2 is one of my favorite seasons of the show, so I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic because I think focusing primarily on the relationships, sexual, parental, or other for awhile and then having things go to shit towards the end keeps things extremely dramatic, while if they just primarily focused on the action and survival, things wouldn't be nearly as dramatic. And I was a pretty big fan of the Harry Potter series because for the first part of the books, they'd usually be about their relationships, and how they felt for one another, and then as the story progressed the danger entered the scene, and the relationships formed, or built upon would come into play and make for dramatic endings. For example, Harry spent a lot of time forming a very solid relationship with Sirius, and others, to the point where a lot of the primary focus often times was into relationship building, but that is why some of the deaths were more dramatic like Sirius' and Dumbledore's, had it not been for having him spend so much time building those relationships, their deaths, they wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic.

    But for each their own.
    Last edited by Deviancy; 08-20-2014 at 07:58 PM.
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  7. #37
    Veteran Member Jack Flag's Avatar
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    I actually am bored with Daryl for the same reason I am bored with Superman at times - Daryl has no problem surviving in what should be a hellscape world - he is catching rabbits easy, etc.

    When you as a passive viewer watch that you also get the feeling there is no tension in the world the protagonist lives in. I much rather watch a lay person who knows jack about surviving stumble through the zombie infested world and making mistakes and struggling to survive and somehow pulling it off.

    I get that people get into imagining themselves as badasses and there is that connection so there is that appeal for Daryl, I get it.

    I remember in the comic book early on one of the characters wanted to have lesbian/bi relations with Lori and Rick - saying that there were no rules anymore, etc. So if Daryl was a repressed gay man - then in this world he would be super free to be who he is without any negative baggage from the past and old world, right? And that again makes him less interesting to me because now he is not only a bad ass survivalist but is free of repressed guilt or whatever.

    Again, that makes it boring for me to observe.

  8. #38
    Veteran Member Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deviancy View Post
    The relationships really do keep the book interesting, and some of the relationships have really made things interesting. Take Tyreese and Carol's relationship, it was bleh at first but when he cheated on her with Michonne, that lead to Carol becoming suicidal, which lead to Rick and Tyreese coming to blows and their friendship never being the same, and it lead to some crazy moments like when Carol wanted to be Rick's other wife, and then when Lori was like "fuck no", that lead her to bang Hershel's son and then suicide, and her suicide then affected Hershel's son which of course affected Hershel on some level. In short, these drama/soap opera relationships, without them, the comic would be bloody boring because it would just be Rick and whoever else killing zombies over and over, and after awhile that gets boring.
    We are talking TV show. Remember when a TV character's actress cut her hair short and people said - what's the big deal? Well it caused the show's ratings to collapse. Why? I have no clue other than TV viewers project themselves to certain storylines or characters. If Daryl does turn out to be gay - and there is nothing wrong with that - it may cause a viewer backlash amongst fans - females especially - and could hurt ratings. I know it seems silly but shows have jumped the shark for less.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flag View Post
    I remember in the comic book early on one of the characters wanted to have lesbian/bi relations with Lori and Rick - saying that there were no rules anymore, etc. So if Daryl was a repressed gay man - then in this world he would be super free to be who he is without any negative baggage from the past and old world, right? And that again makes him less interesting to me because now he is not only a bad ass survivalist but is free of repressed guilt or whatever.
    Not sure I agree. It seems that the most likely guys to have survived in that world are the high-testosterone "macho" types that would be likely to look down on a gay guy. Sure, there's different rules in a world gone to hell like that but it seems like Daryl being gay would still raise prejudice in that world.
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  10. #40
    Veteran Member Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capuga View Post
    Not sure I agree. It seems that the most likely guys to have survived in that world are the high-testosterone "macho" types that would be likely to look down on a gay guy. Sure, there's different rules in a world gone to hell like that but it seems like Daryl being gay would still raise prejudice in that world.
    What I meant is that I find Daryl - unlike most people who adore the character - extremely boring to me as a character the same way I find Superman boring because in this world survival for him seems easy and natural. I rather follow someone who has no clue what he / she is doing and someone pulling it off. If they make Daryl like a gay super hero openly gay and comfortable with himself finally that would bore me even more - if he stays in the closet he is somewhat more tragic and thus more interesting.

    I think I soured on Daryl when he blew up a tank with a hand grenade - something no one has done to a modern tank since the end of WW2 as far as I know. It's not the actor's fault - he is a good actor - it is just how they wrote him.

    I loved Daryl's brother Merle because he was so complex and if you start as a bad guy you get to go on a journey and improve? Become better? Worse? That is what I loved about Breaking Bad's characters - all flawed characters and they all made mistakes and on the way became better people or worse. Merle when he came back was really a fun character to watch because I felt he was going on the hero/villain journey. Daryl is pretty much the hero from the get go.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flag View Post
    What I meant is that I find Daryl - unlike most people who adore the character - extremely boring to me as a character the same way I find Superman boring because in this world survival for him seems easy and natural. I rather follow someone who has no clue what he / she is doing and someone pulling it off. If they make Daryl like a gay super hero openly gay and comfortable with himself finally that would bore me even more - if he stays in the closet he is somewhat more tragic and thus more interesting.

    I think I soured on Daryl when he blew up a tank with a hand grenade - something no one has done to a modern tank since the end of WW2 as far as I know. It's not the actor's fault - he is a good actor - it is just how they wrote him.

    I loved Daryl's brother Merle because he was so complex and if you start as a bad guy you get to go on a journey and improve? Become better? Worse? That is what I loved about Breaking Bad's characters - all flawed characters and they all made mistakes and on the way became better people or worse. Merle when he came back was really a fun character to watch because I felt he was going on the hero/villain journey. Daryl is pretty much the hero from the get go.
    In a way he makes the show more realistic. It would be really weird for only the incompetent to survive the zombie apolcalypse. Daryl has changed a lot since the beginning of the show. He went from lonner/outcast to contributing member and leader of the group. He was almost as bad as Merle but he integrated more to the group and became a better person.

    ps. you need to read more Superman comics.
    Last edited by Francisco; 08-21-2014 at 07:52 PM.

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    No. Just no. Daryl belongs with Carol. It has been apparent since the second season. Melissa McBride and Norman Reedus have tremendous chemistry together. Before you accuse me of being homophobic, I myself am gay! I have been shipping Carol and Daryl for years because of their chemistry and their romantic moments, like when he rescued her on his motorcycle in the Season 2 finale, or when he found her alive and carried her in his arms to safety in Season 3. The producers are only doing this because they want to shut up our vocal fanbase. They went out of their way to keep Carol and Daryl apart in Season 4, and if they go this root, it will just add insult to injury. They don't want us shipping couples on this show, so they wouldn't be doing this to be progressive or inclusive, they'd be doing it to spite us Caryl fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprior93 View Post
    I never got a sexual vibe from them, it seemed like a genuine platonic friendship to me. They were like kindred spirits, both came from abusive relationships that they had to move on from.
    Nope. It's romantic and they have been giving us classic romantic moments between Carol and Daryl since the second season. He rescues her from zombies on his motorcycle, he carries her in his arms to safety when he discovers her alive in Season 3, there's romantic banter between them, etc.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    In a way he makes the show more realistic. It would be really weird for only the incompetent to survive the zombie apolcalypse. Daryl has changed a lot since the beginning of the show. He went from lonner/outcast to contributing member and leader of the group. He was almost as bad as Merle but he integrated more to the group and became a better person.

    ps. you need to read more Superman comics.
    I have been reading comics since the 70s and Superman was boring to me even when I was 6 or 7 and I still pick it up on occasion. I get it - in this world the survivalists would survive. But he is the only survivalist because all in his group knows jack about anything so he was carrying them - like Superman carries the Justice League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by catbatfan View Post
    Nope. It's romantic and they have been giving us classic romantic moments between Carol and Daryl since the second season. He rescues her from zombies on his motorcycle, he carries her in his arms to safety when he discovers her alive in Season 3, there's romantic banter between them, etc.
    I thought it was mother / son affection. Maybe Daryl was molested by his mom?

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