Development instead of new characters...

[Masterff]

Hello,

I have to say that I dont understand the increasing of Superhero Families which happened in Rebirth and I think it would have been better to use their code-names, costumes etc. as development for already established characters.

The 2 most prominent examples are:

1. Batwing:
Tim got the new name Drake and this new Costume during the YJ Run.
Luke instead became Batwing and this outfit which could be a prototype for the Batman of the Future Suit.
Instead of this changing from Red Robin to Robin to Drake to Robin it would have been MUCH better to give Tim the Name of Batwing and a kind of prototype to the Batman of the Future Suit.

2. Godspeed:
Bart became white Flash during the Flashpoint Series and it would have been cool if he became Godspeed instead of being Impulse again.

[Korath]

Or we could have development and new characters.

Batwing is very much one of the two mantles of the Batfamily which belongs to black people (the other one being Signal). Godspeed also worked great as August Heart and now that he's dead, nothing preclude someone (like Bart) to inheriting the mantle, if they so wishes - but it'd have been better to have August survive, really.

There doesn't need to be conflict between new and old characters. DC and some fans want it, that's all.

[Fergus]

Hello,

I have to say that I dont understand the increasing of Superhero Families which happened in Rebirth and I think it would have been better to use their code-names, costumes etc. as development for already established characters.

The 2 most prominent examples are:

1. Batwing:
Tim got the new name Drake and this new Costume during the YJ Run.
Luke instead became Batwing and this outfit which could be a prototype for the Batman of the Future Suit.
Instead of this changing from Red Robin to Robin to Drake to Robin it would have been MUCH better to give Tim the Name of Batwing and a kind of prototype to the Batman of the Future Suit.

2. Godspeed:
Bart became white Flash during the Flashpoint Series and it would have been cool if he became Godspeed instead of being Impulse again.

If you don't know the history of character's then don't include them in your gripping including Batwing here shows a lack of knowledge

[Johnrevenge]

Or we could have development and new characters.

This. Both things can co exist.

[Masterff]

If you don't know the history of character's then don't include them in your gripping including Batwing here shows a lack of knowledge

I know the history BETTER than you do...

If David would still be Batwing than your comment would make sense, but now that Luke is Batwing it DOESNT make any sense.

Or we could have development and new characters.

Batwing is very much one of the two mantles of the Batfamily which belongs to black people (the other one being Signal). Godspeed also worked great as August Heart and now that he's dead, nothing preclude someone (like Bart) to inheriting the mantle, if they so wishes - but it'd have been better to have August survive, really.

There doesn't need to be conflict between new and old characters. DC and some fans want it, that's all.

This. Both things can co exist.

Not really....

We have:
Tim Drake (1989) who is now against Robin
Bart Allen (1994) who is now again Impulse
Conner Kent (1993) who is still Superboy
Cassandra Sandsmark (1996) who is still Wonder Girl

We now have:

Wally West-Jay Garrick-Barry Allen 3!!! People who use Flash as Code-Name
Conner Kent-Jonathan Kent-2!!! People who use Superboy as Code-Name
Damian Wayne-Tim Drake-2!! People who use Robin as Code-Name

And
Bart Allen-Wallace West 2 people who could use the name Kid Flash
Bart Allen-Iris West II 2 people who used the name Impulse


It would have made sense and it would have been good for all to let Bart Allen graduate and take the name Godspeed, because so Bart can graduate and Iris West II can take over the name Impulse, like she did in Pre-Flashpoint.



Sure-Development and New Characters COULD THEORETICALLY co-exist, but like I showed we now have a situation with
3 Flash
2 Robin
2 Superboy
and now when Iris West II and Jai West will get more prominent roles they will also need new Code-Names.

and we all have seen Tim being Robin then Red Robin then again Robin and then Drake and now Robin again.

Batwing would have been a better mantle, since the Code-Name isnt anymore Robin, doesnt have anything to do with his real name....
The Costume is also much better and fits him as technic genius.

[Korath]

Batwing doesn't fit Tim Drake at all. Luke inherited/took the mantle up when David Zavimbe dropped it - as far as we know.

Ans frankly, there is nothing wrong with several characters having the same aliases, as long as people write different stories with them. It's just a matter of DC not bothering to do so, not a problem of Bart being called Impulse. I also think that fans who are mostly here because of nostalgia are slightly impairing the progression of those characters. There is no reason why Impulse or even Robin couldn't be monikers for adult heroes. Their wearer would just have to be growing up and achieving impressive stuff, perhaps tweaking their costumes as they grow.

[Johnrevenge]

Batwing doesn't fit Tim Drake at all. Luke inherited/took the mantle up when David Zavimbe dropped it - as far as we know.

Ans frankly, there is nothing wrong with several characters having the same aliases, as long as people write different stories with them. It's just a matter of DC not bothering to do so, not a problem of Bart being called Impulse. I also think that fans who are mostly here because of nostalgia are slightly impairing the progression of those characters. There is no reason why Impulse or even Robin couldn't be monikers for adult heroes. Their wearer would just have to be growing up and achieving impressive stuff, perhaps tweaking their costumes as they grow.

Exactly. Luke earned the Batwing's title, and giving the title that have belonged to two black heroes to a white one is a retarded idea. As far as it seems Damian is going to quit being Robin, os it seemed rigth that Tim took back the mantle.

And as Korath had said, there is no problem with several characters having the same aliases (it had been like this for decades), we have like 6 green lanterns for example.

[Killerbee911]

Batwing would have been a better mantle, since the Code-Name isnt anymore Robin, doesnt have anything to do with his real name....
The Costume is also much better and fits him as technic genius.

Why are we trying to replace someone unique with the 3rd white black hair male robin whose unique thing is being smart( But all robins are pretty smart) for The son of Batman ally Lucius Fox, who is just as smart Tim Drake and already is in the suit. That is not development that is you thinking that a character is the lesser character so he can be easily disposed another character come and take his cool stuff. When the character you are talking about should be probably be the one getting the boot.

Luke is the one with the great pitch "Batman meets Iron Man but if Iron Man suit was more like Black Panther". All Batwing needs is the respect of being treated like an Elite hero. He might not reach the heights of the main character but he is the most suited to wear high tech suits fans do love on Batman but can't get more often because Batman always to be reverted to original form for tradition.

Yes I know it is Arkham Knight




Yes I know this is a Batman suit


The point is that is Luke Fox/Batwing Angle. The Bat character in the bad ass high tech suits and everyone who is looking for Batman to upgrade to high tech suit this character to follow. We don't need Tim Drake to become Batwing. We have character who can do everything he can do in the suit already. Let Tim Drake be forever associated with names that you sing a song when you first see it. I mean I can't be the only one who go does the "Red Robin hummmmmm" the first time I see the name after awhile or breaks into what ever your favorite "Drake song" when you see the name Drake.

You are talking about developing then "Develop" Luke Fox Batwing

[Masterff]

Exactly. Luke earned the Batwing's title, and giving the title that have belonged to two black heroes to a white one is a retarded idea. As far as it seems Damian is going to quit being Robin, os it seemed rigth that Tim took back the mantle.

And as Korath had said, there is no problem with several characters having the same aliases (it had been like this for decades), we have like 6 green lanterns for example.

Batwing doesn't fit Tim Drake at all. Luke inherited/took the mantle up when David Zavimbe dropped it - as far as we know.

Ans frankly, there is nothing wrong with several characters having the same aliases, as long as people write different stories with them. It's just a matter of DC not bothering to do so, not a problem of Bart being called Impulse. I also think that fans who are mostly here because of nostalgia are slightly impairing the progression of those characters. There is no reason why Impulse or even Robin couldn't be monikers for adult heroes. Their wearer would just have to be growing up and achieving impressive stuff, perhaps tweaking their costumes as they grow.

Not really.....

1. IMPULSE:
a) Do you know the story behind the name?
It was given as a warning, not as a compliment.

b) It hasnt the same prestige as Kid Flash/Flash-Bart already was Kid Flash and Flash.
It was one of the biggest problems in this Young Justice Series for me, that Bart became Impulse once again.
Especially as he encountered Wallace-the name Kid Flash just has more prestige and in the encounter Wallace with Bart Wallace seemed to outshine Bart for me, because of him wearing the Kid Flash costume..

c) Personal opinion, but in Sins of Youth the adult Bart was wearing the Impulse Costume and in my opinion it absolutely DOESNT fit an adult hero.

d) Iris West II was also wearing the Impulse Costume in Pre-Flashpoint.

For Iris West II it might not be a problem, since she can be LADY FLASH or the GODDESS OF SPEED or so...

2. ROBIN:
Robin is for sure only a name with which a character starts his careeer.

Dick for example is only so sucessfull, because he got a Code-Name on his own with which everyone connects him with.

There are adult Robins in the Arkham Games, but it doesnt really work since then you are always seen as Batmans protegee and not like Nightwing as a character on your own.

As Robin you simply dont have the same authority as you have as Batman or Nightwing.

3. MULTIPLE CHARACTERS USING SAME CODE-NAME:

Not really, its extremely annoying for me and the situation with GL its completely wrong, since GL ISNT a Code-Name, but its more a job title like soldier,bricklayer, cop etc.
It also takes the uniqueness etc. away.

It was absolutely true what BART ALLEN said in Pre-Flashpoint:
Wally West EARNED the title Flash and it was his Code-Name, Bart was absolutely in favor of Wally West and wasnt happy that his grandfather Barry Allen came back.

And in Wallys Case it was evident in Rebirth as they even used Barry as REAL Flash and Wally as the protegee etc, even as they were both Flash.
Like in the Titans issue when they were trapped and forced to fight to give power to the Key.

4. SOME CODE-NAMES with -BOY,-GIRL,-LAD, YOU JUST CANT USE THEM ANYMORE AS ADULT

5. Its better for sales, promotion etc.

One of the big problems which I had with YJ was that Conner,Bart,Cassie,Tim werent aged up and they got their old code-names back.

I liked it MUCH better in Pre-Flashpoint with Bart as Kid Flash, Iris West II as Impulse, Tim as Red Robin...

I am still sure that it would have worked better if Bart,Cassie,Conner,Tim would have been aged up and got new Code-Names.

6. It was annoying for me to see new characters getting new cool costumes and code-names on their own, while the Core YJ4 were still using their old Code-Names:

a) Batwing was a cool Code-Name and it was more independent etc. than Robin and I liked it also MUCH better than Drake.
I simply HATED the Drake Code-Name and the Costume while the Batwing Identity would have been a much better option for him, considering the outfit and codename.

b) The same with Impulse, Bart was already Kid Flash and Flash so going back to Impulse was also a huge step back for me for him.

[Masterff]

Why are we trying to replace someone unique with the 3rd white black hair male robin whose unique thing is being smart( But all robins are pretty smart) for The son of Batman ally Lucius Fox, who is just as smart Tim Drake and already is in the suit. That is not development that is you thinking that a character is the lesser character so he can be easily disposed another character come and take his cool stuff. When the character you are talking about should be probably be the one getting the boot.

Luke is the one with the great pitch "Batman meets Iron Man but if Iron Man suit was more like Black Panther". All Batwing needs is the respect of being treated like an Elite hero. He might not reach the heights of the main character but he is the most suited to wear high tech suits fans do love on Batman but can't get more often because Batman always to be reverted to original form for tradition.

The point is that is Luke Fox/Batwing Angle. The Bat character in the bad ass high tech suits and everyone who is looking for Batman to upgrade to high tech suit this character to follow. We don't need Tim Drake to become Batwing. We have character who can do everything he can do in the suit already. Let Tim Drake be forever associated with names that you sing a song when you first see it. I mean I can't be the only one who go does the "Red Robin hummmmmm" the first time I see the name after awhile or breaks into what ever your favorite "Drake song" when you see the name Drake.

You are talking about developing then "Develop" Luke Fox Batwing

Why developing Luke?

Luke is just another Robin whose skills doesnt match Tims.

Tim is already around for 30 years and has much more fans than Luke.

[Korath]

I know you really love Tim Drake's generation of character, but have you ever considered the fact that for a lot of us, they are some of the dullest, most uninteresting characters (like Superboy I) or even toxic to the brand they were added to (Tim spearheaded the horrible idea that Batman needs a Robin to not go fully insane and assholic, when he initially took Robins so young kids wouldn't go a darker path of brutality and darkness) ?

I mean, I don't judge you because you like them? If you do, it's because clearly they worked for you. But as for myself, the original YJ book is just unreadable and I have zero attachment for those characters.

I honestly await a cameo from the Silencer in Event Leviathan : Checkmate if it ever goes out more so than any of the characters you listed, for instance, because I really love the character, but I understand that it's not the case for everyone obviously.

So when you say "Why Luke instead of Tim?" my only answer would be : "Why would you want Tim to get his hands on that so he can make the whole thing dull?"

[Masterff]

I know you really love Tim Drake's generation of character, but have you ever considered the fact that for a lot of us, they are some of the dullest, most uninteresting characters (like Superboy I) or even toxic to the brand they were added to (Tim spearheaded the horrible idea that Batman needs a Robin to not go fully insane and assholic, when he initially took Robins so young kids wouldn't go a darker path of brutality and darkness) ?

I mean, I don't judge you because you like them? If you do, it's because clearly they worked for you. But as for myself, the original YJ book is just unreadable and I have zero attachment for those characters.

I honestly await a cameo from the Silencer in Event Leviathan : Checkmate if it ever goes out more so than any of the characters you listed, for instance, because I really love the character, but I understand that it's not the case for everyone obviously.

So when you say "Why Luke instead of Tim?" my only answer would be : "Why would you want Tim to get his hands on that so he can make the whole thing dull?"

Thats YOUR PERSONAL opinion, the MAJORITY of readers sees it DIFFERENTLY.

TIM DRAKE:
https://www.cbr.com/top-dc-characters-15-11/
Here this a poll from 2019 and he is ranked at #14

https://www.cbr.com/2011-top-dc-characters-9-8/
Here this is a poll from 2011 and he is ranked at #8

YOU may not like him, but he has a HUGE Fan-Base and between 2007-2011 he was in the Top 10 of DC Characters and in 2019 he was still ranked at #14-

CONNER KENT/SUPERBOY:
https://www.cbr.com/2011-top-dc-characters-17-15/
Here this is a poll from 2011 and he was ranked at #17

Conner lost positions because of NEW52 when he was replaced by the NEW52 Superboy

[Korath]

Just because he had a larger fan-base doesn't make him a better character. Luke Fox (even more so David Zavimbe), Duke Thomas, Honor Guest, Jessica Cruz, Kong Kenan, to name a few, have a far smaller fan base, and yet they are incredibly interesting characters who would deserve more development just as much - if not more - than Tim Drake's generation.

You are conflating your tastes - which can't be judged, we like what we like after all - with the inherent quality of a product (here, characters).

[Killerbee911]

Why developing Luke?

Luke is just another Robin whose skills doesnt match Tims.

Tim is already around for 30 years and has much more fans than Luke.

Tim is the least unique out 5 white male characters, 2 Black male characters and 4 white female characters in the same brand.

Who cares if he has been around for 30 years, he isn't the best character in his lane. They will always be characters better than him at what he does in batman comics. Luke has different unique lane that you are trying to give the Tim because he is kinda generic or redundant. Plus Luke bring perspective of black character in the world of Batman something only one other character does at the moment. And those two characters don't over lap because one of them is the guy with superpowers and the other is the guy with the power suits.

The no reason to develop Tim other than sentimental ties to the past, He isn't going to bring something vastly different than you can't get from Dick or Damian. Whatever you think about Luke he is clearly different that most of characters in the bat universe AND has distinct lane which is so good that you want to give it to Tim Drake.

Remember again your point is about supposedly "developing" so whatever Luke is supposedly lacking can be "developed". Luke can be written "smarter", Luke can develop fans with use just like Tim did over time. What you want from Tim Drake is to give him a unique lane, Which you want to take from a character who already has that. Batwing is establish thing and even though there was a character that came before kinda how Carol has taken over Captain Marvel, Fox will end up being one more associated with name despite being the second character for example The character is on tv show has been used in animated movies.

[LifeIsILL]

What about all the 500 or so Silver Age Batman and Superman villains we've never seen ever again. How about some development for those guys? I wanna see what The Human Eraser is up to.
Oh, and Wonder Woman's female rogue gallery, instead of introducing a new person develop some older ones.