The Flash #761 Discussion/Spoilers

[Buried Alien]

This issue basically fulfilled "Thawne responsible for all bad things happened in Flashes' life " meme. He also unintentionally saved Flash Family and even the whole DCU in a meta way perspective
I love this issue

He "saved" them, yes, but he was also the reason they all got screwed in the first place. He inadvertently helped to fix what he very deliberately broke to begin with.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[K. Jones]

I’m torn.

On one hand, I’m glad they retcon’d a bunch of garbage that was ruining several characters (which was the writers own damn faults)

That said if every stupid decision can be wiped away by “Thawne did it” going forward, it kinda cheapens everything.

I've been thinking about this in a meta sense a lot lately because of Superboy Prime's reappearance. I'm all for timey-wimey hijinx and good continuity clean-up but obviously that doesn't prevent the problem of writers making dumb decisions all the time anyway, it just means better writers can correct things later. But who wants to have to go around fixing continuity problems and character assassinations that "other writers" not even on your main book forced characters in your sandbox to go through? And I realize that's like "Welcome to DC".

But in thinking about it in regards to Superboy Prime I was thinking about how as a being from Pre-Crisis Earth-Prime, or Earth-33 as we now know it ... which is ... our world? ... Superboy Prime's "reality punches" are somehow appropriate because living in the bleed beyond the veil he I guess had access to the ultimate super-power of the beings of Earth-33 - EDITORIAL POWER. Retcons as a super-power. He's not just "channeling" the angry fanboy outbursts of the denizens of Earth-33, he's able to access the writers and editors, too, even though he's stuck down there in Paper Land. And like Superman he's got super vision, but some of it is just "God's Eye View" overview of the history of the continuity.

So flip that over to Thawne ... and his storyline has always featured having been from 500 years in the future and knowing all about The Flash. And the necessity of not having a paradox means that he also had to know all about himself even though he hadn't done any of the things yet. Barry (and Wally) are always reeling from these big cosmic timeline shifts ... but it feels like every time there's a big timeline twist, Thawne on the other hand is always opportunistically trying to use them to change his own history no matter the cost. My question is like ... okay, that's legit and even good time traveler characterization but regarding that, why the hell did the White Entity during Blackest Night/Brightest Day bring him back? I mean other than Geoff Johns wanting it. What's the White Entity's skin in the game when it comes to timeline tampering? Because cosmic forces like Doc Manhattan, Perpetua, Monitors, Parallax, always be mucking with the timeline in big events ... but "Timeline Tampering" has officially become the modus operandi, the villainous MEME of Professor Zoom. It's what he does.

I will say that the Nega-Speed Force "whisper" power is a good one. It's devilish but more than that I feel like it's a good antithesis to Barry - Barry's usually good for optimism and Capital-Blue "HOPE" and saying something that inspires so of course Thawne must have the power of fostering apathy. He messed up Barry, Wally, Wallace AND Bart! Hoo boy. That being said it seems like that power only affected people with Speed Force power. It's like a "dark whisper through the Speed Force". You don't see him utilizing it on anyone non-Speed. Even August and Hunter are Speed, though they hadn't been imbued with the power yet when he tweaked things, they would be and using Negative-Speed, knowing their timelines, I guess the Speed Force still kind of swirls around them before even being part of that big destiny thing.

Obviously there's predestination paradoxes and whatever else in play.

Either way, I like it. I'm curious to see what Williamson's spin on a FINALITY confrontation is going to be. We had a Flash Family Reunion, a big colorful pow wow, and Wally's not just addressed, he's the whole coda to this run, in the thick of yet another Crisis-style scenario that'll probably feature some weird thematically relevant players, in addition to the Manhattan-Force Batman Who Laughs, maybe Doc Manhattan himself, Multiverse Flashes, maybe Black Flash and I dunno, an oddly appropriate "return" of Red Death maybe? But that means Finish Line will theoretically "Finish" Thawne for a while and I'm curious how he does it. Williamson's Flash arcs have been nothing if not thematically very appropriate and solid and doing strong, clean, things with holistically integrating and reconciling the concepts.

And this guy isn't Sinestro or Black Adam. He has like no redeeming qualities. So we want to see him get owned.

[qwertyuiop1998]

He "saved" them, yes, but he was also the reason they all got screwed in the first place. He inadvertently helped to fix what he very deliberately broke to begin with.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I was joking. At least now we can blame Thawne for all the shitty things that happened in Flash family's history during the last few years.







Or the next few years, Depending on whether DC keeps going the "all is Thawne's doing" solution

[king81992]

Thawne being used a a get out of jail free card for the writers and editorial's bad decisions is only good for memes.

[G-Man34]

It would have been nice if Zoom and Godspeed would have been around to hear Thawne's boasting so we could see an enemy mine type of situation where they team up with the Flash Familuly to take out their mutual nemesis, lol. Of course Zoom might just thank Thawne for making him "better".

[mrjames21]

The LoS just can't be tied to just one timeline anymore. There just has to be multiple Earth versions for them because at this point they don't make sense anymore.

According to Legion of 3 Worlds, XS was on the Legion of Earth-Prime because her Element Lad created Kryptonite that hurt him. So she would've come via the multiverse route rather than the future because her Dad hid her on another Earth.

[Frontier]

While I'm glad they were able to use Thawne's time shenanigans to explain away ever bad creative decision from the past several years, I'm not sure I want to see anyone to use Reverse Flash again like this. This has got to be a one-time "Get Out of Jail Free" card that the Flash franchise gets to use to handwave away digging themselves into a creative hole.

I don't begrudge them for doing it. The Spider-Man books pulled the same stunt with Norman Osborn after they repeatedly shot themselves in the foot creatively. It's a tried and true superhero cop-out.

But it's still a cop-out.

The next creative team has to figure out a way of writing Barry, Iris, Wally, Jay, Bart, Wallace and the rest of the Flash Family without needing to bring in Eobard Thawne to save them from bad writing. That would rob the stories of any dramatic weight. Whoever is going to be charting the course of the Flash books needs to hunker down and do the work of figuring out who Barry is that isn't simply Wally, but if he were a scientist, and they also need to decide on what role Wally is going to have moving forward now that the Heroes in Crisis had largely been explained away.

That said, I could not be happier that The Flash finally has a clean slate, free of the nonsense that's built up after years of creative and editorial mismanagement, to begin a new direction that will hopefully bring all of its fans together, rather than pointlessly pit them against each other.

I think Williamson would've been able to get to all of that sooner than he did if not for having to clean up after editorial or other writers using his characters most of the time (although the Thawne reveal impacts stuff he's already written, so maybe he was planning this for a while).

[sifighter]

Do you think Thawne hates Wallace because his Dad took the name reverse flash during new 52? I’m sure it’s because he’s the current kid flash but I also kind of feel like Thawne would be that petty.

[Digifiend]

According to Legion of 3 Worlds, XS was on the Legion of Earth-Prime because her Element Lad created Kryptonite that hurt him. So she would've come via the multiverse route rather than the future because her Dad hid her on another Earth.

This doesn't change the fact that the Legion she knew is no more. She tries to go home, she'll find a Legion that doesn't remember her (if they knew her, then Brainiac 5 should've known Conner before they met recently in the House of Kent storyline, as Conner was on the same version of the Legion).

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Williamson would've been able to get to all of that sooner than he did if not for having to clean up after editorial or other writers using his characters most of the time (although the Thawne reveal impacts stuff he's already written, so maybe he was planning this for a while).

I have no doubt that Williamson was hamstrung by editorial for a lot of his run. We'll see if the current editorial regime is any better. My guess is that DC's new editorial edicts will be better in some ways, and much worse in others, just as Didio were compared to Carlin, who was similarly better and worse than Giordano.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

This doesn't change the fact that the Legion she knew is no more. She tries to go home, she'll find a Legion that doesn't remember her (if they knew her, then Brainiac 5 should've known Conner before they met recently in the House of Kent storyline, as Conner was on the same version of the Legion).

All prior incarnations of the DCU are now preserved in infinite multiverse once again, according to Doomsday Clock, which may not have gone exactly according to Geoff Johns's original plan, but it did still take place.

That means everything that's ever taken place within the DCU still exists somewhere out there in the Multiverse to be used or left on the shelf whenever a creator wants to use something or someone.

[Buried Alien]

All prior incarnations of the DCU are now preserved in infinite multiverse once again, according to Doomsday Clock, which may not have gone exactly according to Geoff Johns's original plan, but it did still take place.

That means everything that's ever taken place within the DCU still exists somewhere out there in the Multiverse to be used or left on the shelf whenever a creator wants to use something or someone.

Of course, Hypertime achieved essentially the same goal twenty years ago.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BatmanJones]

I'm up on most but not all continuity (such as it is lately) but is this the first we've seen of Jae and Irey on main earth since Flashpoint? I know they appeared in Flash Forward but I can't remember a dang thing about that series except that it was boring and it did not take place on earth.

If Jae and Irie have returned, does that mean Linda Park remembers too?

I mean, not that the current continuity will remain after Death Metal, etc. And we seem headed for an "it all happened" approach which I absolutely love. It was true for 45 years before CoIE came along, said some things happened and some didn't, revised essentially everything, and then just had to keep revising over and over and over again for the next 35 years. If we're heading back to the "it all happened" status enjoyed before CoIE, I'll be super happy about that.

And, if that's the case, Linda, Jae, and Irey will be back anyway.

But for now, are they back? Have they been back before this latest issue?

[Rend20]

If Jae and Irie have returned, does that mean Linda Park remembers too?

Flash Forward ended with them being brought back home and Linda having her memories restored. But this is the first time we've seen them since then.

[TheMaker1610]

I have no doubt that Williamson was hamstrung by editorial for a lot of his run. We'll see if the current editorial regime is any better. My guess is that DC's new editorial edicts will be better in some ways, and much worse in others, just as Didio were compared to Carlin, who was similarly better and worse than Giordano.

People have been very critic regarding how Williamson wrote Barry for most of his run, but man.. I have ZERO doubts he LOVES The Flash (the characters, family and Legacy)

And as most people here already pointed out, Didio and Editorial were messing with what he had already envisioned for his run, in almost every way possible.. So seeing him making to the Finish Line (literally) on his own terms now, makes me really happy for him, and for the now-back Flash Family

Just 2 more weeks for the conclusion guys ! Let's go !