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  1. #61
    Mighty Member JLH's Avatar
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    It's great seeing XS again but I'm not holding my breath for her next appearance...

  2. #62
    Spectacular Member TheMaker1610's Avatar
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    Now that I had time to digest and fully re-read this issue, I got to notice something I completely forgot about
    Barry said to Thawne that this Free-For-All he orchestrated was a distraction, to prevent him from solving a murder case in which Thawne himself was involved (as shown on previous issues)

    I wonder the reason as to why said case seems to be so significant for this arc/run conclusion
    Any ideas?
    Last edited by TheMaker1610; 09-11-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  3. #63
    Fantastic Member Potanical Pardon's Avatar
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    The art was great. The writing was not even close, but I don't care, I got what I've been wanting to see/read as a status quo type of thing since pre-Didio DC.

  4. #64
    Fantastic Member Potanical Pardon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    The infinite Earths of the DC Multiverse are back. As a result, every single version of the DCU that has ever been published, proposed, or theorized now exists somewhere out there, no matter how obscure, irregardless of whether it's been rebooted, retconned or erased from continuity, because infinite new Earths are constantly being created

    Essentially, everything is back in play again. It doesn't mean every character is going to be appearing regularly, but they are available to use if someone wants them.
    Thanks, guys. I wasn't sure if Earth 2 (new 52 young ones) were Manhattaned (like main Earth-0 characters) to be the real JSA/All-Stars etc but deagged or if they were now considered separate.

  5. #65
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    The most exciting panel in this issue for me, was Thawne telling Wally that no one will believe him and that he needs to cover it up.

    Is this a hint that Thawne may have been the murderer all along, and that Wally could be exonerated?

  6. #66
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    The most exciting panel in this issue for me, was Thawne telling Wally that no one will believe him and that he needs to cover it up.

    Is this a hint that Thawne may have been the murderer all along, and that Wally could be exonerated?
    I don't think Wally was ever depicted as a murderer. The energy discharge that killed everyone at Sanctuary was very explicitly stated to be unintentional. What the Thawne reveal has done is explain away Wally's completely out-of-character behavior afterwards. There was simply no way Wally West would intentionally cover up the deaths of his friends and frame someone else for their "murders" without some outside manipulation, which this story amply provides.

    The brilliance of this retcon is it allows readers to decide how much responsibility Wally now has for what occurred during that story, much in the same way that the retconning of Hal Jordan's heel turn left things vague in terms of how much Hal was in control of his actions while possessed by Parallax.

    For those that actually enjoyed Heroes in Crisis, the story still works for them because this new reveal doesn't really change anything that occurred. Meanwhile, for those who had serious issues with it, like myself, it helps explain away the creative choices that fell completely flat. And, of course, for those who hated it with the passion of a thousand suns, they can view it as 100% all Thawne's doing, from the explosion to the cover up to virtually all of Wally's actions. And virtually any of the deaths at Sanctuary can be undone thanks to whatever multiversal time shenanigans are coming down the pike.

    Again, it was a damn fine bit of retconning...

  7. #67
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think Wally was ever depicted as a murderer. The energy discharge that killed everyone at Sanctuary was very explicitly stated to be unintentional. What the Thawne reveal has done is explain away Wally's completely out-of-character behavior afterwards. There was simply no way Wally West would intentionally cover up the deaths of his friends and frame someone else for their "murders" without some outside manipulation, which this story amply provides.

    The brilliance of this retcon is it allows readers to decide how much responsibility Wally now has for what occurred during that story, much in the same way that the retconning of Hal Jordan's heel turn left things vague in terms of how much Hal was in control of his actions while possessed by Parallax.

    For those that actually enjoyed Heroes in Crisis, the story still works for them because this new reveal doesn't really change anything that occurred. Meanwhile, for those who had serious issues with it, like myself, it helps explain away the creative choices that fell completely flat. And, of course, for those who hated it with the passion of a thousand suns, they can view it as 100% all Thawne's doing, from the explosion to the cover up to virtually all of Wally's actions. And virtually any of the deaths at Sanctuary can be undone thanks to whatever multiversal time shenanigans are coming down the pike.

    Again, it was a damn fine bit of retconning...
    As you noted, Wally was generally seen as murdering his comrades at the sanctuary, whether this is fair or not, depends on the interpretation of how the massacre happened.

    I haven't reviewed the story in a while, but I recall that he lost control of the speed force and it ended up killing everyone at the sancturary? What I don't recall, is how they were killed, if it was by his hand or an energy force expulsion?

    At any rate he's in his Spectre stage rate now, and hopefully the latest storyline with Thawne offers some hope in exonerating him.

  8. #68
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Well, he's gone now. I look forward to the nerd rage at whatever idiotic decisions the next regime makes
    Hopefully with someone else's favorites. I could use some rest. \_(ツ)_/
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  9. #69
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    As you noted, Wally was generally seen as murdering his comrades at the sanctuary, whether this is fair or not, depends on the interpretation of how the massacre happened.

    I haven't reviewed the story in a while, but I recall that he lost control of the speed force and it ended up killing everyone at the sancturary? What I don't recall, is how they were killed, if it was by his hand or an energy force expulsion?

    At any rate he's in his Spectre stage rate now, and hopefully the latest storyline with Thawne offers some hope in exonerating him.
    I don't think Wally is seen by anyone as murdering people in Heroes in Crisis except by hyperbolic fanboys who want to exaggerate the creative misfires of King's story by claiming it does stuff that never actually occurred in the comic. By the story's end and everything was revealed, it was quite clearly a horrible accident that...ugh, I'm not going to go into the specifics of the story because they are far too convoluted and nonsensical to even bother going over. The long and the short of it is that Wally's out of character behavior afterwards now has a perfectly workable explanation.

    As for the deaths themselves, they were the result of a "Speed Force explosion" that occurred due to Wally's grief over the erasure of his wife and children by time shenanigans. Since no one has mentioned this idea before or since, I think we can all chalk this up to Thawne's doing, perhaps by causing an overload within Wally's body using the Negative Speed Force.

    Frankly, I think it'd be best to just ignore the whole thing like everybody did with the similarly dumb idea that Barry Allen created the Speed Force. Let all these crappy ideas be flushed away by the impending continuity reshuffle and never mention it again. If anyone has a really good story that requires this stuff, go ahead and use it. Otherwise, let it be forgotten.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think Wally is seen by anyone as murdering people in Heroes in Crisis except by hyperbolic fanboys who want to exaggerate the creative misfires of King's story by claiming it does stuff that never actually occurred in the comic. By the story's end and everything was revealed, it was quite clearly a horrible accident that...ugh, I'm not going to go into the specifics of the story because they are far too convoluted and nonsensical to even bother going over. The long and the short of it is that Wally's out of character behavior afterwards now has a perfectly workable explanation.

    As for the deaths themselves, they were the result of a "Speed Force explosion" that occurred due to Wally's grief over the erasure of his wife and children by time shenanigans. Since no one has mentioned this idea before or since, I think we can all chalk this up to Thawne's doing, perhaps by causing an overload within Wally's body using the Negative Speed Force.

    Frankly, I think it'd be best to just ignore the whole thing like everybody did with the similarly dumb idea that Barry Allen created the Speed Force. Let all these crappy ideas be flushed away by the impending continuity reshuffle and never mention it again. If anyone has a really good story that requires this stuff, go ahead and use it. Otherwise, let it be forgotten.
    Hardly. I think it's more common something more casual fans think. Because the entire experience was advertised and dictated and conveyed as a murder mystery. Keyword on murder. When you spend 8 issues thinking "who is the murderer" people just tag Wally in as the answer for their thoughts, not "Oh it was an accident" even if that's how they rewrote it at the end.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think Wally is seen by anyone as murdering people in Heroes in Crisis except by hyperbolic fanboys who want to exaggerate the creative misfires of King's story by claiming it does stuff that never actually occurred in the comic. By the story's end and everything was revealed, it was quite clearly a horrible accident that...ugh, I'm not going to go into the specifics of the story because they are far too convoluted and nonsensical to even bother going over. The long and the short of it is that Wally's out of character behavior afterwards now has a perfectly workable explanation.

    As for the deaths themselves, they were the result of a "Speed Force explosion" that occurred due to Wally's grief over the erasure of his wife and children by time shenanigans. Since no one has mentioned this idea before or since, I think we can all chalk this up to Thawne's doing, perhaps by causing an overload within Wally's body using the Negative Speed Force.

    Frankly, I think it'd be best to just ignore the whole thing like everybody did with the similarly dumb idea that Barry Allen created the Speed Force. Let all these crappy ideas be flushed away by the impending continuity reshuffle and never mention it again. If anyone has a really good story that requires this stuff, go ahead and use it. Otherwise, let it be forgotten.
    I was quoting your own words on being a murderer, and the poster below did point out that the whole series was based on a murder mystery.

    Nonetheless, you will not get an argument out of me. I was left absolutely incensed by heroes in crisis not just for what they did to Wally but because they killed one of my favourite characters (Roy Harper) the sooner it is undone, the better.

  12. #72
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Yeah, I am not going to revive the undead corpse of Heroes in Crisis for everyone to take another whack at it for its many, many sins.

    I think we can at least agree that Flash #761 successfully managed to wash away some of the stink of the worst parts of that story so that Wally West can move on to greener pastures without HiC hanging around the character's neck anymore.

  13. #73
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Yeah, I am not going to revive the undead corpse of Heroes in Crisis for everyone to take another whack at it for its many, many sins.

    I think we can at least agree that Flash #761 successfully managed to wash away some of the stink of the worst parts of that story so that Wally West can move on to greener pastures without HiC hanging around the character's neck anymore.
    It did ok. I don't know if it did enough. But I also don't know what will be of continuity come next year, so let's just wait and see.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 09-17-2020 at 10:04 AM.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

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