X-Force #12 Spoiler/Review - DOOF! The Condescension of Hank McCoy

[Devaishwarya]

I appreciate the trip down memory lane. Gonna dig into those X-Factor issues. Thanks!

They are awesome...I'm re-reading my X-Factor FotM.

[cranger]

They are awesome...I'm re-reading my X-Factor FotM.

I had just read 9-25 this past week so this was all fresh in my mind. The run was way more soapy than I remembered, and it is amazing how often most of the O5 are not even in the stories.

[numberthirty]

There's that, and there's also his entire rest of his history that he spends trying to commit genocide and not giving a **** about mutankind outside of manipulating idiots into thinking he cares. So, yeah.

If that was actually the agenda, there is no reason that he would have sacrificed his first group of Horsemen(heck, set aside that one of them may very well have been his child...) if what you say was actually the case.

Is he Mister Rogers?

Negative.

Is his entire history completely devoid of actual human feeling or sentimentality?

Only if you decide to actively ignore some of the actual history.

[cranger]

If that was actually the agenda, there is no reason that he would have sacrificed his first group of Horsemen(heck, set aside that one of them may very well have been his child...) if what you say was actually the case.

Is he Mister Rogers?

Negative.

Is his entire history completely devoid of actual human feeling or sentimentality?

Only if you decide to actively ignore some of the actual history.

This is the same guy who knocked up a probably underage girl who then hid the child so he would not kill it.

[numberthirty]

This is the same guy who knocked up a probably underage girl who then hid the child so he would not kill it.

Well, it's actually more like...

"Hid The Child Because It Was Her Own Belief That Apocalypse Would Kill It..."

[cranger]

Well, it's actually more like...

"Hid The Child Because It Was Her Own Belief That Apocalypse Would Kill It..."

Sure, but what would ever give her that impression? I'm just saying that the character has had a certain portrayal for 30 years before Hickman that some people won't see this, or maybe just prefer it, the same way as others.

[numberthirty]

Sure, but what would ever give her that impression? I'm just saying that the character has had a certain portrayal for 30 years before Hickman that some people won't see this, or maybe just prefer it, the same way as others.

That's the thing though...

If you look at the actual entirety of that portrayal(namely The Rise Of Apocalypse...), it's not really as "Certain..." as one might believe.

Never mind some of the grey area of what the actual motivation is in some of the other examples folks have brought up.

Is the character ever really going to be some squeaky clean hero?

Probably not.

That said, lots of writers and instances over the years have poked some pretty sizable holes in the idea that his motivation is that of a villain at it's core.

[loke13]

Sure, but what would ever give her that impression? I'm just saying that the character has had a certain portrayal for 30 years before Hickman that some people won't see this, or maybe just prefer it, the same way as others.

I mean regardless of his previous portrayal Hickman's intent for the character is to obviously have him in a more "grey" area than his previous incarnations. Personally I'd like to see the character go a similar route as Magneto when it comes to his portrayal and hopefully that's what Hickman is steering towards.

[Denkota]

Beast should whip Logan Jean and have them hung naked after framing them for some crimes humiliating them then tear apart Colossus in his steel form. That would add more angst and fuel the Hank is a mad scientist motiff. Then when the X-MEN try to apprehend him the Avengers will show up and demand them to stand down which they will of course do as they are typically shown as losers afraid of the Avengers.

[pkingdom]

It really feels like you're picking and choosing a tiny portion of his history to see him this way. His backstory, origin, goals, motivations and even his powers have had dozens of retcons and bad explanation, with one of the few throughlines being his Darwinist tendendcies and habit and killing everyone around him. Suddenly trying to make him some kind of folk hero and well-intentioned extremist is baffling.

[numberthirty]

It really feels like you're picking and choosing a tiny portion of his history to see him this way. His backstory, origin, goals, motivations and even his powers have had dozens of retcons and bad explanation, with one of the few throughlines being his Darwinist tendendcies and habit and killing everyone around him. Suddenly trying to make him some kind of folk hero and well-intentioned extremist is baffling.

Not if it isn't "Sudden..."

While I guess I can see that there is a lot of back story in the mix, it's not like anyone has come along and undercut the story where who Apocalypse will one day be starts. It definitively is his backstory.

That being the case, the ideas that are being followed up on right now are absolutely there in that miniseries. The hardcase as well as the loving "Family..." person who is lamenting that he doesn't have a people of his own.

[JB]

Beast should whip Logan Jean and have them hung naked after framing them for some crimes humiliating them then tear apart Colossus in his steel form. That would add more angst and fuel the Hank is a mad scientist motiff. Then when the X-MEN try to apprehend him the Avengers will show up and demand them to stand down which they will of course do as they are typically shown as losers afraid of the Avengers.

No more day drinking for you, friend.

[Sutekh]

I think an issue with Apocalypse is that he was a cackling two-dimensional caricature of a villain when introduced in the eighties, all genocidal and over the top and not even remotely needing to be 'fleshed out' or have any deeper motivations since he was for punching, not talking to.

Now he's getting some complexity added, as somewhat befits a dude who's been around for millenia, is ridiculously powerful, and yet, inexplicably, we'd never heard of having any significance, historically, ever before. (Uh, he napped a lot? Lol.)

Magneto went through the exact same evolution, over decades, and even suffered a regression to 'mad terrorist twat' before being salvaged back to the more nuanced character he had transitioned to. (No doubt Apocalypse will have similar bumps in his journey, as some writer who doesn't like a 'gray' portrayal of him and wants a more cut and dried 'this is the bad-guy, full stop' Apocalypse of his childhood, gets their hands on the character and drags him back to genocidal warmonger territory.)

Now, I should note, just because he's 'complex' or 'nuanced' or somewhat less a two-dimensional and over-the-top genocidal Darwinist maniac as he was when he woke up all cranky a few decades back, doesn't mean that I think he's morally right about anything. (Honestly, I wake up after a 1000 year nap and have no coffee, I'll probably want to kill a few million peeps too...)

I'm still not convinced that Magneto is right about anything. He's just more enjoyable to read about now. Ditto Emma, for that matter. Her methods and motives can be self-serving and sketchy and undemocratically aristocratically elitist as hell, but she's *fun* to read about.

I can enjoy their antics without necessarily thinking they are all 'good people' or admirable role-models or pillars of moral (or ethical) rectitude.

[pkingdom]

I'd be much less salty about him if we actually knew what he was capable of. We seriously still don't know how he turns people into his Horsemen. He's been able to do it and undo almost instantly before.

[Technopriest]

Yeah but “daddy”

Hahahahaha, Apocalyse the sexy mutant is just such a weird concept to me, but to each his own as they say.