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  1. #16
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    So Disney had no plan? Guess I'll add it to the list.

    List of things I was chastised for saying about the Disney Trilogy that turned out to be right.
    They had no plan.
    That was Obvious when Johnson said they let him do what ever he wanted, Such a horrible way to do things
    Everything came too easy for Rey.
    Which made her boring in the end.
    Finn was handled poorly.
    All of the characters were handled poorly Finn most of all, Poe was not consistent, at first he was the right hand man to Leia and best pilot in the Resistance, Then he was the win at all cost hot head that did not trust authority, then he was the hero with the shady past who became the leader of the Resistance. For Rey as said every thing just came to easy for her and got boring. Finn just about became the forgotten man and that is really sad because he was the most interesting
    Holdo's reason for withholding her plan from everyone was stupid.
    Poorly written plot reason to push the story, Johnson sucks at writhing
    Hyperspace ramming breaks Star Wars.
    They tried to explain it away in The Rise of Skywalker but it was too late, its out there.
    Leia should have died when she was sucked out of the airlock.
    No, Ryan Jonson should have never written a Star Wars movie and that would have never happened
    Rian Johnson will not direct another Star Wars movie.
    And the world will be a better place
    Palpatine was never meant to come back.
    Of course not, after Johnson's scorched earth style of story telling and LFL/Disney's sudden need to make Ben Solo a hero a new big bad had to be found and Palpatine being the easiest choice.
    The Last Jedi damaged the trilogy, you just didn't notice because it was riding the goodwill The Force Awakens generated. It left no coattails for The Rise Of Skywalker to ride and actively turned some fans off Star Wars
    Because Johnson was to busy trying to make and edgy and different Star War movie, he forgot he was making a Star Wars movie, that and he is not a great writer in the first place.
    Rose was a poorly thought out character.
    Rose was an unnecessary character
    They should have let Finn sacrifice himself in The Last Jedi. You may think he wouldn't have succeeded but you are In the minority because all the casual movie viewers believed he would have succeeded.
    Or the scene should have never happened at all
    Maz was a terrible character.
    I liked Maz and she opened up for for stories out side of the movies (which no one took advantage of), though I don't think she should have been used in any of the other movies.
    Luke was handled poorly
    .
    Luke was lost in Johnson's want to subvert expectations and be different
    Kylo was a poor villain and his look was ripped off from Revan.
    In the end yes, though The Force Awakens set him up to be a great villain and Han's death was quite possibly the best shot cinematic scene in Star Wars, the sound and lighting made it feel so final. Kylo Ren pulling and manipulating Han closer saying what was thought as a plea for redemption but turned out to be the linchpin to his complete turn to the dark side and the light faded in more ways than one. That awesome scene was completely undone by Johnson when he had Kylo Ren hesitate shooting the bridge of Leia's ship and further undone when he had Rey feel bad for him. I really didn't mind the Reven look.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Rey Kenobi.
    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...072232263.html

    Which, in the pre-Disney EU, Obi Wan did have a brother named "Ben", hence his alias. I don't know about her being his granddaughter/great-granddaughter, but a niece?
    Sure you're not confusing this with the old thing about Owen being Obi-Wan's brother? It's something that was in the ROTJ novel, but possibly was cut from the movie, but was sort of semi-canon for a while until AOTC made it clear that he was actually Anakin's stepbrother.
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  3. #18
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Regarding the Revan thing, Revan's mask itself is based on the Mandalorian T-shaped visor look (Since Revan fought in the wars and so took his 'look' from his foes), except that the vertical part is covered by armor instead of being part of the visor.


    So essentially Revan got his look from Boba Fett. The dimensions of Kylo's mask is closer to Vader, although without the 'mouth'.


    As for Disney having a plan, they did have a lot of basics mapped out (For instance Dave Filoni sort of came up with Luke being a grouchy hermit around the planning bit) but I think Carrie's death really messed things up for the original ROS plans.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 09-11-2020 at 09:24 AM.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    As for Disney having a plan, they did have a lot of basics mapped out (For instance Dave Filoni sort of came up with Luke being a grouchy hermit around the planning bit) but I think Carrie's death really messed things up for the original ROS plans.

    To add to this, the similarity in the musical themes for Rey and the Emperor certainly suggests a connection being drawn between the two as early as her first scenes in TFA. (Seriously, go listen to the core notes of Rey's theme. Now go listen to the core notes of the Emperor's theme. Once you think about it it's hard NOT to hear.)

    That's the kind of coincidence that either borders on the miraculous (though certainly possible), or John Williams knew something none of the rest of us did.

  5. #20
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    I didn’t really mind ray palpatine, it was a bit unexpected. I wanted Rey Solo, her being Han and Leia’s younger kid. They were hiding her from snoke after keylo went bad. That’s also why Han took a liking to her immediately. She still could have had a ‘connection’ to keylo and wanted to save him, but it would be because he was her older brother, and Finn doesn’t get sidelined.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The thing with the Palpatine stuff is that it would was at least addressed in the film, so it had some relevance. Kenobi is long dead, he can't have any relevance to the plot. It would just be pure fan service. Not to mention, it still reinforces the 'bloodlines matter' theme.
    Why do people assume there was a bloodlines matter theme? That has never been the case.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Well, at least i'm glad for the memes.

    That "rey who?" line spawned a galaxy of them.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Well, at least i'm glad for the memes.

    That "rey who?" line spawned a galaxy of them.
    You just know the "Rey Atreides" version is right around the corner.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Why do people assume there was a bloodlines matter theme? That has never been the case.
    The enitre bloodline thing s a weird case of accidentally creating a kind of theme while trying to actually disprove it - Rian Johnson kind of just wanted some kind of meaning behind making Rey a “no one” (which I think he really wanted just out of a pretentious believe in that being the most surprising answer), so that was ostensibly the reason... but he also combined that with arguably giving the movie to Luke and Kylo over Rey and especially Finn because of their bloodline.

    I mean, Star Wars already had an egalitarian, your-blood-doesn’t-define-you message: the Skywalkers come from literal slave stock in the space boonies, and Anakin’s subversive failure of his “Chosen One” fate in the PT proves you can screw up your “destiny,” while the original Vader reveal threw Luke’s desire to be like his father into a tailspin, while heroes like Han, Obi-Wan, and Yoda all proved anyone could be a hero...

    ...But TLJ, while supposedly arguing that Rey Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/Any Familiar Name would somehow be “elitist,” is also busily ignoring the horrible nature of Kylo’s actions and banal nature of his motivations to pretend he’s a deep character who Rey needs to care about and sympathize with while ignoring Finn primarily because of who his family is, and argues that Finn, Han, and Poe destroying a literal Solar-System-Killer WMD and avenging a solar system can’t inspire people... but Luke doing a five minute shadow puppet show will.

    I don’t really believe that Rey Random was ever really about any kind of egalitarian, anti-elitist message. I think it’s was much more about simply what people wanted the story to be... and that alongside other, more neutral or less forward thinking support for non-Rey Skywalker answers, there’s a contingent of Star Wars fans who wanted Kylo to be the main character over Rey and Finn who may not have the best motivations for it.

    Like, I don’t know if Abrams realized it when making TFA if he was thinking of Rey Kenobi, or Johnson when making TLJ with Rey Random, that they were screwing the Skywalker family storyline to a dark and depressing ending by making Kylo their only new member and the new lynchpin for their family drama - that’s all well and good if you’re okay with that, as I know many TLJ fans are...

    ...But if I see someone who liked Rey Random but also wanted Ben Solo to survive the ST and value him above Finn, than I tend to think it was always more about benefitting Kylo/Ben and had little to do with Rey.
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  10. #25
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    To add to this, the similarity in the musical themes for Rey and the Emperor certainly suggests a connection being drawn between the two as early as her first scenes in TFA. (Seriously, go listen to the core notes of Rey's theme. Now go listen to the core notes of the Emperor's theme. Once you think about it it's hard NOT to hear.)

    That's the kind of coincidence that either borders on the miraculous (though certainly possible), or John Williams knew something none of the rest of us did.
    The parade music that closes out TPM some have noted sounds like a sped-up, "happy" version of Palpatine's theme (Since it's technically his victory), although Williams has denied I think that's what he had in mind.


    One thing you never really hear about is Palpatine's theme being somewhat a darker version of Yoda's theme if you really listen closely. When fleshing out the Emperor in ROTJ Lucas said he intended for Palpatine to more or less be the anti-Yoda-he looks like a frail old man with a cane, but he's actually quite powerful and wise etc. and of course the two were pitted against each other in ROTS....
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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The enitre bloodline thing s a weird case of accidentally creating a kind of theme while trying to actually disprove it - Rian Johnson kind of just wanted some kind of meaning behind making Rey a “no one” (which I think he really wanted just out of a pretentious believe in that being the most surprising answer), so that was ostensibly the reason... but he also combined that with arguably giving the movie to Luke and Kylo over Rey and especially Finn because of their bloodline.

    I mean, Star Wars already had an egalitarian, your-blood-doesn’t-define-you message: the Skywalkers come from literal slave stock in the space boonies, and Anakin’s subversive failure of his “Chosen One” fate in the PT proves you can screw up your “destiny,” while the original Vader reveal threw Luke’s desire to be like his father into a tailspin, while heroes like Han, Obi-Wan, and Yoda all proved anyone could be a hero...

    ...But TLJ, while supposedly arguing that Rey Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/Any Familiar Name would somehow be “elitist,” is also busily ignoring the horrible nature of Kylo’s actions and banal nature of his motivations to pretend he’s a deep character who Rey needs to care about and sympathize with while ignoring Finn primarily because of who his family is, and argues that Finn, Han, and Poe destroying a literal Solar-System-Killer WMD and avenging a solar system can’t inspire people... but Luke doing a five minute shadow puppet show will.

    I don’t really believe that Rey Random was ever really about any kind of egalitarian, anti-elitist message. I think it’s was much more about simply what people wanted the story to be... and that alongside other, more neutral or less forward thinking support for non-Rey Skywalker answers, there’s a contingent of Star Wars fans who wanted Kylo to be the main character over Rey and Finn who may not have the best motivations for it.

    Like, I don’t know if Abrams realized it when making TFA if he was thinking of Rey Kenobi, or Johnson when making TLJ with Rey Random, that they were screwing the Skywalker family storyline to a dark and depressing ending by making Kylo their only new member and the new lynchpin for their family drama - that’s all well and good if you’re okay with that, as I know many TLJ fans are...

    ...But if I see someone who liked Rey Random but also wanted Ben Solo to survive the ST and value him above Finn, than I tend to think it was always more about benefitting Kylo/Ben and had little to do with Rey.
    Given what I hear of him I'm not sure Abrams had any plans. I can't imagine he didn't have any veto power when it comes to TLJ. The guy was executive producer. I'm pretty sure that would come with some level of influence.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Given what I hear of him I'm not sure Abrams had any plans. I can't imagine he didn't have any veto power when it comes to TLJ. The guy was executive producer. I'm pretty sure that would come with some level of influence.
    Right now, what we’ve got seems to be a mishmash of stuff.

    - Ridley and others implied that Abrams *did* leave some rough draft ideas for the next few films that Johnson then discarded.
    - Johnson has repeatedly said he had a free hand to do whatever he did.
    - Ridley has reported in the late few days that Rey was probably supposed to be a Kenobi in TFA (which has made me shake my head at Abrams, but not as much as TLJ has made me shake my head at Johnson.) She then went on to say it definitely changed from film to film.
    - Boyega has expressed distaste and disgust with TLJ upending what storyline ideas Abrams discussed with him... and implied that LFL interfered with the plan for TROS involving his character.
    - Williams has backed up Boyega’s statements about TROS with some statements about the score he provided.
    - Maryann Brandon, Abrams’s editor has quietly expressed some frustration that TLJ undid the work of Abrams and Bad Robot on TFA.

    Abrams was a producer on TLJ... but if LFL was willing to override and fight him on his own (Second) film, it wouldn’t surprise me if he was told not to interfere with Johnson on TLJ by LFL, which would have more pressure now not just from simple professional respect (which I think Abrams had for Johnson) but also because LFL was dead-set on doing the whole “allow each director to do their own thing” idea. And Abrams as executive producer still wouldn’t outrank Kathleen Kennedy in the pecking order, and she was clearly convinced in Johnson (and would normally be right.)

    Abrams is still at fault, mind you. But LFL seems to have wholeheartedly embraced all the bad things about TLJ, or even inspired them, if their obsession with Kylo and apathy towards the other characters is something they led Johnson to enforce... so I think the way things got immeasurably worse is on LFL and Johnson.
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  13. #28
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    This dude is a rare level-headed Star Wars Youtuber (he has up until know refrained from commenting on the controversies) and even he has lost his shit over the recent Rey and Finn revelations -

    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Given what I hear of him I'm not sure Abrams had any plans. I can't imagine he didn't have any veto power when it comes to TLJ. The guy was executive producer. I'm pretty sure that would come with some level of influence.
    "executive producer" doesn't mean much, that's sometimes just a honorary title for someone who has been an important creator for the franchise at some point.

    Stan Lee has for example an "executive producer" credit on basically every marvel movie or TV show (just look here https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0498278/).

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Why do people assume there was a bloodlines matter theme? That has never been the case.
    I don’t understand neither: what is it this love for dynasties? Like any young person gifted with fine qualities must be some lost prince or princess… He or she cannot be some commoner…

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