Silverfang vs Master Roshi

[JohnDiggle]

Who takes this one?

Hopefully this is a better fight than the last one I did with Silverfang.

[Nik Hasta]

Roshi from when is the question?

I'd personally put Bang over Roshi circa the Dragonball days, Bang is very skilled and seems to be significantly stronger than Roshi in terms of hitting power. The speed breakdown of OPM has him pretty high in the pecking order so they should be pretty close all things considered. Roshi has a superior range game but Bang has blocked/deflected some pretty seriously powerful energy blasts from Overgrown Rover without issue so I don't think it's a huge issue for him.

A competitive fight but I think Bang has a slight edge.

However, as of Super, where Roshi is somehow still relevant? Bang can't hang with that at all.

[Jackalope89]

Had to look up Silverfang real quick to be reminded he was the old master from One Punch Man.

Honestly, physically, in Dragon Ball at least for Roshi, the two would be pretty similar. With Roshi's long range abilities giving him a edge. Not necessarily a clean win, but an undeniable edge.

Super... Its Roshi's unless he throws the match. He's grown significantly stronger since Dragon Ball (for instance, he was originally only able to use the Mafuba once, but in Super, could use it multiple times) and finally conquered his weakness of pretty girls (which wouldn't be an issue with Silverfang anyway).

[The Drunkard Kid]

In terms of strength, 21st Budokai-era Roshi was able to hold his own against Goku and Kuririn back when they were doing stuff like smacking people out of an arena or jumping up to cloud height and 22nd Budokai-era Roshi was able to hold his own against a Tenshinhan who seemed to be notably stronger than Taopaipai, AKA, Mr. "Casually throw stone pillars intercontinental distances at hypersonic speeds with extreme precision." Add to that speeds that let him have an entire fight sequence (complete with a strategizing session, a game of rock paper scissors, and a bout of mutual poor sportsmanship) so fast that it looked like he and his opponent had just flash stepped to opposite ends of ring during the 21st Budokai, being able to casually catch machine gun fire aimed at his back from point blank range a few days after the 21st Budokai and during the 22nd Budokai he was able to leave quite a lot of afterimages to people who make the 21st Budokai era Roshi look like a statue, and Silver Fang is probably a solid underdog against at least 22nd Budokai era Roshi, though OPM's art style definitely makes Bang's melee feats look flashier than Roshi's.

And that's without taking into account that Roshi's Kamehameha (which ranges from "accidentally shattered a burning mountain and the castle atop it while extremely out of practice and trying to hold back so as to only blow out the fire" to "deliberately blew up the moon while going all out") was way beyond anything we saw from Overgrown River, which, IIRC, he could only just barely deflect once with assistance from his equally strong brother and being mildly boosted by Fubuki's psychic powers. Also, I'm not even sure if it's even feasible to deflect that lightning net technique that Roshi almost got Goku to tap out to in the 21st Budokais (before Goku saw the full moon and went giant ape).

[Nik Hasta]

In terms of strength, 21st Budokai-era Roshi was able to hold his own against Goku and Kuririn back when they were doing stuff like smacking people out of an arena or jumping up to cloud height and 22nd Budokai-era Roshi was able to hold his own against a Tenshinhan who seemed to be notably stronger than Taopaipai, AKA, Mr. "Casually throw stone pillars intercontinental distances at hypersonic speeds with extreme precision."

Strictly speaking, nothing you've cited there is actually strength feats. It's "he can hold his own," which doesn't give them their feats of strength or hitting power. That would be ABC logic. He's got the big rock moving feat but I'm struggling to think of an actual strength feat that puts him in the league of Bang, when he's serious, dismembering Fuhrer Ugmon for example.

Bang is quite scarily strong and tends to hold back a fair bit in most of the series. When he goes for it, he's very lethal.

Add to that speeds that let him have an entire fight sequence (complete with a strategizing session, a game of rock paper scissors, and a bout of mutual poor sportsmanship) so fast that it looked like he and his opponent had just flash stepped to opposite ends of ring during the 21st Budokai,

This sequence is an attack each with gross out responses and brief pause for thinking - noted as having taken 0.2 seconds in the text incidentally - and then one throw of rock paper scissors and then Roshi hit Krillen after doing a made you look. It's very fast but I don't think it's beyond where Bang when he's fully serious can reach to.

being able to casually catch machine gun fire aimed at his back from point blank range a few days after the 21st Budokai

Again, nothing Bang couldn't accomplish. Garou, at a time when he was poisoned, on the dregs of his energy and heavily wounded, and noted as being still significantly below Bang, did the same kind of thing.

and during the 22nd Budokai he was able to leave quite a lot of afterimages to people who make the 21st Budokai era Roshi look like a statue,

I'd need more context on this, it's been a billion years since I read Dragonball, but Bang is solidly faster than upgraded Genos who can deal with Sonic when he's leaving multiple afterimages as well so I'm not seeing this being a huge issue. OPM speed curve is reasonably deep.

And that's without taking into account that Roshi's Kamehameha (which ranges from "accidentally shattered a burning mountain and the castle atop it while extremely out of practice and trying to hold back so as to only blow out the fire" to "deliberately blew up the moon while going all out") was way beyond anything we saw from Overgrown River, which, IIRC, he could only just barely deflect once with assistance from his equally strong brother and being mildly boosted by Fubuki's psychic powers. Also, I'm not even sure if it's even feasible to deflect that lightning net technique that Roshi almost got Goku to tap out to in the 21st Budokais (before Goku saw the full moon and went giant ape).

The burning mountain feat took significant charge up time and is not really a combat viable attack and therefore not indicative of his overall point-and-click firepower.

The moon, well, I don't particularly want to touch that feat because I know that it will open a can of worms. I have consistently contended that feat as wild SMvsFL for Dragonball as a series, even moreso for Roshi as a character. Doesn't scan for me one bit.

The lightning net is a good shout, I'd forgotten he had that. That could be a game winner there.

[big_adventure]

It's always been funny to me that Roshi, who is a joke, powerlevel wise, throughout most of the franchise is the one who so badly blows up the power curve in the DB era. The moon "feat" specifically. Tao is the other: we go from "machine gun fire isn't a problem" to "chucks massive pillars from one continent to another at ludicrous speeds" without a ton of buildup between those things, then that is outclassed ridiculously a few pages later.

Anyway, I'd tend to follow the assessment that DB-era Roshi doesn't have enough to not lose a strong majority to Bang, but Super-era Roshi wouldn't even really notice Bang as a foe. Obviously there is no explanation for this - Roshi's only training in that period was watching porn I think - but there you have it.

[Cody]

Nothing to suggest the moon busting feat was smvfl. It wasn't something that would help him in a fight as it required him to bulk up and charge up while no one was attacking him. Completely useless in a fight, and completely unviable in a fight with someone comparable to him. His normal Kamehamehas are nowhere near as powerful.

However, Roshi is a guy with a few esoterics to his name. In addition to the lightning net, he has been able to hypnotize people to sleep:





As well as mind reading:



So how does that change things?

[Nik Hasta]

Nothing to suggest the moon busting feat was smvfl. It wasn't something that would help him in a fight as it required him to bulk up and charge up while no one was attacking him. Completely useless in a fight, and completely unviable in a fight with someone comparable to him.

I mean, he bulked up and charged in the time it took Ape Goku to take a swing at him.

Even without that, it's wildly beyond any destructive feat shown in DB up until Vegeta shows up who is astronomically above anyone in the DB series. It is hellah SMvsFL.

His normal Kamehamehas are nowhere near as powerful.

Hence why I think Bang could block them.

However, Roshi is a guy with a few esoterics to his name. In addition to the lightning net, he has been able to hypnotize people to sleep:

As well as mind reading:

So how does that change things?

The pages you have posted are not sequential, the sleep technique seems to require significant posing and singing to make it work. Goku just stands there kind of obliviously and takes no counter action. Additionally, I read through the whole fight scene in question, turns out that the lightning net also seems to have a significant charge time attached to it. Mind reading like... we never see him use it combat remotely so I don't know what you're reaching for here.

With the lightning net having a charge time, I'm back to thinking Bang takes this.

[Cody]

I mean, he bulked up and charged in the time it took Ape Goku to take a swing at him.

Ape Goku is a rabid animal, doesn't really use any of his abilities, let alone Super speed. Was also roaring around iirc, it was only when Roshi was charging up the attack that Goku was about to attack. Bang isn't letting him get into position to do a Kamehameha as he will be on top of him the moment Roshi buffs up.

Even without that, it's wildly beyond any destructive feat shown in DB up until Vegeta shows up who is astronomically above anyone in the DB series. It is hellah SMvsFL.

Its not, it's from using an attack that can put out more energy than the user actually has in their body. We don't know how powerful he was when he bulked up, and Kamehamehas that are charged always put out more energy than the user has(another good example of the attacks charging capabilities is when Goku used it on Raditz, and despite being stronger than his younger bro, Raditz was completely flabbergasted by the attack, not knowing how to do it himself, and was even stung by it enough to get ticked off when he was hit with it despite the fact that Goku isn't really capable of harming Raditz on his own out of tail grabbing. So it would make sense that we do not see something like that again later, not even from someone like King Piccolo, who is stronger than Roshi, yet doesn't have any chargeable attacks to suggest he could repeat the feat, and nothing to suggest kid Goku was ever that powerful until after his training with Kami).

And until Vegeta shows up? Piccolo casually blew up the moon too well before Vegeta, though he is far more powerful than Roshi, you can't call all of them smvfl when its the second time it happened. Without some form of buffed up transformation and/or have chargeable attack; no one else could do that with a non chargeable attack until the Saiyan saga. The point was that the attack needed a build-up, no one showed to be as powerful as a charged you Kamehameha from a buffed Roshi until later, and even then guys like King Piccolo didn't have much in the way of chargeable attacks that could put our far more energy than one has in their body to blow something like the moon up(not that one existed when King Piccolo appeared). His "son" was able to blow up the moon casually with one arm because at that point he was above and beyond everything from before the Saiyan Saga. Roshis Kamehameha makes it more consistent if you consider how much stronger Piccolo Junior would be to what he was when he fought Goku, who was astronomically above Roshi himself during that point.

For those as fast as Roshi, that build-up does not make it applicable for a fight. Ape Goku isn't as fast as Roshi, hes a wild animal, unlike Ape Vegeta who was in full control of himself and his abilities there. Ape Gohan certainly didn't by the end of the Saiyan Saga, and Goku managed to get him somewhat under control, but was still resorting to using giant rocks instead of his attacks.This is a rabid giant monkey, unlikely using any of Gokus speed, or any other abilities really.

The pages you have posted are not sequential, the sleep technique seems to require significant posing and singing to make it work. Goku just stands there kind of obliviously and takes no counter action. Additionally, I read through the whole fight scene in question, turns out that the lightning net also seems to have a significant charge time attached to it. Mind reading like... we never see him use it combat remotely so I don't know what you're reaching for here.

Why do you have to accuse someone of "reaching" when all their doing is providing scans and asking for your thoughts on Bang dealing with that? I'm not offended or anything, it just seems unnecessarily accusatory.

[Nik Hasta]

--- [snipping a bunch of stuff about Roshi power scaling that is ignoring my central objection] ---

I want to stress, that as someone who has had these arguments like a hundred times over in the past, I am very uninterested in rehashing this argument with DB heads. It's SMvsFL to my mind, it is completely outside of the relative power curve of /everything/ in Dragonball up to that point and up to the end of the series.

Roshi destroying the moon and, indeed though to a lesser extent, Piccolo destroying it in early Z, both are super out there and do not make sense.

Why do you have to accuse someone of "reaching" when all their doing is providing scans and asking for your thoughts on Bang dealing with that? I'm not offended or anything, it just seems unnecessarily accusatory.

I don't know what you're quite implying here but I'm not using "reaching" as a slur against your credibility.

You said "Roshi has mind reading," and provided a scan of him doing it outside of combat and it's common knowledge that he never uses it in combat so my question is; what you are trying to suggest or ask me to answer here?

Are you saying Roshi is somehow always using mind-reading in combat? [He isn't]

Has Roshi ever shown any kind of combat edge derived from his apparent mind reading? [He has not]

Is this mind reading thing a one-off thing that is never really relevant in DB ever again? [It is!]

Ergo, I am asking what you are trying to say here? If your question is; how does Bang deal with something that apparently has literally zero application in a combat situation? Yeah, he deals with it fine. It is functionally meaningless in the context of this Rumble.

[Cody]

The stuff you snipped out had everything to do with how it was accomplished in the first place Nik. The kamehameha has always been capable of putting out well beyond what the caster actually has within them. Just how weak do you assume Roshi is, and based off what? For he only used his attack to destroy two things, and succeeded in doing so. So what's inconsistent? For why others didn't blow up an already destroyed moon? For the stuff you removed explained that.

I want to stress, that as someone who has had these arguments like a hundred times over in the past, I am very uninterested in rehashing this argument with DB heads. It's SMvsFL to my mind, it is completely outside of the relative power curve of /everything/ in Dragonball up to that point and up to the end of the series.

I kinda made a breakdown over why that was not the case. We never see anyone attempt to blow anything up while aiming at the ground except for King Piccolo and he aimed for Goku(wasn't even a chargeable attack like the Kamehameha either, but more concentrated like a powered up no blast). You saying it is inconsistent despite nothing contradicting it doesn't really make it so.

Roshi destroying the moon and, indeed though to a lesser extent, Piccolo destroying it in early Z, both are super out there and do not make sense.

I already explained why they did, unless you can offer a better explanation as to how it was, it's your resistance to the feat that doesn't make much sense. Considering the gap between the two, there isn't anything contradicting it. What did they fail to blow up that makes it SMvFL?

I don't know what you're quite implying here but I'm not using "reaching" as a slur against your credibility.

You seem rather aggressive is all, is everything okay?

You said "Roshi has mind reading," and provided a scan of him doing it outside of combat and it's common knowledge that he never uses it in combat so my question is; what you are trying to suggest or ask me to answer here?

Well if he can look at someone's memories I would imagine he would do that to Silverfang as well to get a better idea of how he fights, not necessarily to use while trading blows. Not like has ever needed to use them again, so it's not like it would disappear from his list if abilities. Not to say it can be used during combat of course.

Are you saying Roshi is somehow always using mind-reading in combat? [He isn't]

You do realize that this is like me lecturing you on Kens abilities from Fist of the North Star, right?

You were also mistaken about Roshis hypnosis ability:



https://3mbaz92gc2e0e.h5m4w5ftz8k4g....3e5a8ac/x6.png

Wasn't a long build-up or anything, no long chanting and posing

That was the only lead up before the other scans I provided then there is this:






Seemed to work quicker this time. Going from the scans I provided in my previous post about it, and what was shown in the vid, it looked like there was a drowsy effect occurring even before he finished his hand waving.

He also seems to know how to paralyze people with a pressure point of sorts:

[Nik Hasta]

The stuff you snipped out had everything to do with how it was accomplished in the first place Nik. The kamehameha has always been capable of putting out well beyond what the caster actually has within them. Just how weak do you assume Roshi is, and based off what? For he only used his attack to destroy two things, and succeeded in doing so. So what's inconsistent? For why others didn't blow up an already destroyed moon? For the stuff you removed explained that.

Oh good, someone trying to engage me in an argument I specifically said I had no interest in engaging with. Hooray. What a lucky boy is me.

I kinda made a breakdown over why that was not the case. We never see anyone attempt to blow anything up while aiming at the ground except for King Piccolo and he aimed for Goku(wasn't even a chargeable attack like the Kamehameha either, but more concentrated like a powered up no blast). You saying it is inconsistent despite nothing contradicting it doesn't really make it so.

No one in DB hits anywhere remotely close to the busting of a celestial body. Your "breakdown" offered nothing to address that issue. You can claim that "the Kamehameha multiplies energy," which apparently translates into Roshi moon-busting making sense, despite it being wildly beyond the curve of the series. This is, what we call in the business, a weak argument.

It's SMvsFL, I've read DB. I've read DBZ. Roshi blowing up the moon makes makes zero sense in context.

You seem rather aggressive is all, is everything okay?

You are projecting to an impressive degree. I said you are reaching because you are pretending something that has no bearing on Roshi's combat ability is apparently relevant.

Well if he can look at someone's memories I would imagine he would do that to Silverfang as well to get a better idea of how he fights, not necessarily to use while trading blows. Not like has ever needed to use them again, so it's not like it would disappear from his list if abilities. Not to say it can be used during combat of course.

Citation of him using it in combat? Literally ever within DB.

You do realize that this is like me lecturing you on Kens abilities from Fist of the North Star, right?

I mean, I actually know what I'm talking about in Hokuto no Ken sooo... maybe not quite the one-to-one comparison you're shooting for.

You were also mistaken about Roshis hypnosis ability:

A video, from Super no less, that shows Roshi having to sing a lullaby and do hand gestures before an effect actually happens. What a strong piece of evidence. -_-

https://3mbaz92gc2e0e.h5m4w5ftz8k4g....3e5a8ac/x6.png

Wasn't a long build-up or anything, no long chanting and posing

That was the only lead up before the other scans I provided then there is this:

Several links to a manga hosting site that we aren't allowed to link to, none of which are showing up on CBR. Strong showing of evidence here.

Seemed to work quicker this time. Going from the scans I provided in my previous post about it, and what was shown in the vid, it looked like there was a drowsy effect occurring even before he finished his hand waving.

He also seems to know how to paralyze people with a pressure point of sorts:

Please learn to image host.

[Cody]

Oh good, someone trying to engage me in an argument I specifically said I had no interest engaging with. Hooray. What a lucky boy is me.

You didn't exactly have to say something was SMVFL and continue to argue the point when it was agreed that it isn't viable in this fight. I'm not exactly putting a gun to your head, you don't have to respond lol.

No one in DB hits anywhere remotely close to the busting of celestial body. Your "breakdown" offered nothing to address that issue. You can claim that "the Kamehameha multiplies energy," which apparently translates into moon-busting making sense, despite it being wildly beyond the curve of the series. This is, what we call in the business, a weak argument.

You're claiming they have to hit as hard as the Kamehameha, missing the point of what I was getting at. Who says they would have to hit as hard as the attack that is putting out far more energy than they have to strengthen themselves with? Goku sure as heck couldn't hit hard enough physically to match the power behind the kamehameha he used on Raditz. This disregarding the fact that nothing supports your claim either as there isn't anything they have ever failed to break with their physical attacks either prior to Z. If you're basing this off the lack of area damage, then that nullifies 99% of feats in most pieces of fiction. The kamehameha Roshi used wasn't one any of them could take without dying outright either if the problem is their durability showings.

It's SMvsFL, I've read DB. I've read DBZ. Roshi blowing up the moon makes makes zero sense in context.

You keep repeating this but have yet to provide reasons as to why... Please provide an instance of them failing to break something or destroy something with a charged up energy blast.

You are projecting to an impressive degree. I said you are reaching because you are pretending something that has no bearing on Roshi's combat ability is apparently relevant.

Projection would require a previous instance of aggression, when was i anything but civil? And i am not just referring to you accusing me reaching now, the while tone of your posts comes off as confrontational and hostile to me.

I mean, I actually know what I'm talking about in Hokuto no Ken sooo... maybe not quite the one-to-one comparison you're shooting for.

And I actually know what i am talking about when it comes to Dragonball. Are you saying I don't, or am i misinterpreting you?

A video,

From the canonical version of DBS, yes.

From Super no less, that shows Roshi having to sing a lullaby and do hand gestures before an effect actually happens. What a strong piece of evidence. -_-

Edit: Captain Morgan pointed out that is unlikely due to their comparable speed, so I'll remove this point.

Several links to a manga hosting site that we aren't allowed to link to, none of which are showing up on CBR. Strong showing of evidence here.

Do you have to be condescending over a debate between fictional characters? They were links to the pictures in question, not the site, so I didn't think CBR would remove them, they're showing for me.

https://m.imgur.com/a/R4Nbm



Pressure point:

Please learn to image host.

So its this type of thing that makes me wonder if you're being aggressive here. What have i done to deserve such tone? What's wrong with just notifying me that you can't see the scans?

So how about some scans that contradict the moon busting feat? An instance of them struggling to destroy something that isn't the moon.

[Captain Morgan]

Not gonna touch the moon stuff, but that hypnosis clip is irrelevant for several reasons.

1) It is Super. Even taking into account that fights were happening at super speed, Roshi is himself much faster. There's no reason to assume he can't also perform his technique faster.

2) Relative to Roshi's speed, whatever that is, that still took 30 seconds to knock his opponent out, and he only got a chance to do it because his enemy stopped to gloat. Bang isn't going to stand still and gloat for 30 relative seconds.

3) If Roshi is faster and/or can get the distance the use hypnosis, he has probably already won by charging up a kamehameha anyway. The argument is that Bang is too fast and strong to give Roshi room to do any of that.

[Cody]

Not gonna touch the moon stuff, but that hypnosis clip is irrelevant for several reasons.

1) It is Super. Even taking into account that fights were happening at super speed, Roshi is himself much faster. There's no reason to assume he can't also perform his technique faster.

2) Relative to Roshi's speed, whatever that is, that still took 30 seconds to knock his opponent out, and he only got a chance to do it because his enemy stopped to gloat. Bang isn't going to stand still and gloat for 30 relative seconds.

3) If Roshi is faster and/or can get the distance the use hypnosis, he has probably already won by charging up a kamehameha anyway. The argument is that Bang is too fast and strong to give Roshi room to do any of that.

Alright, fair enough. But what about if Roshi paralyzed him via pressure point like in the scan above?