Thoughts on Kindred?

[xpyred]

Wait... are we saying that Peter was the one who made the deal with Mephisto? I have not touched One More Day in a long, long time but wasn't it MJ who ultimately decided for the both of them?

[stillanerd]

Here's the problem with the whole "Kindred is the portion of Peter's soul left behind from One More Day" theory. Aside from the fact that Mysterio, as has already been pointed out, was resurrected before One More Day took place, Marvel has no plans of ever undoing One More Day. But that doesn't mean they won't tease it. Getting Peter and MJ back together, Peter's plan on proposing to her again, Kindred being from Hell, etc. All of it is designed to make those who were upset by Peter and MJ's marriage being erased latch on to the idea that, finally, Marvel will reverse course. And like the Pavlov dogs that we are, we jump at it. And if think about, Kindred supposedly bringing Mysterio back from the dead is the only "clue" pointing to Kindred being "a portion of Peter's soul taken by Mysterio." Every other "clue" is really just we, the readers, trying to fit everything else around it because, deep in our hearts, we want it to be true because we want One More Day undone. And Nick Spencer and Marvel knows this.

And as for Harry being Kindred, that seems like a logical assumption to make, except there's one small problem: Harry is still alive. Moreover, we also know that his death was faked by his father and, interestingly enough, by Mysterio. Just because we haven't seen Harry since Nick Spencer took over from Slott, and just because we saw an image from Spectacular Spider-Man #200 showing Harry's "death" doesn't change the fact that Harry is alive and well, and reunited with Liz, his two sons, and even his mother. Besides, if Harry was revealed as Kindred, the reaction would basically be "what's the big deal?"

But if Kindred were, in fact, Gwen Stacy back from the dead? Think of how devastating that would be for Spider-Man. Think of how shocked those who held Gwen in high regard would feel. Think of the conflict that presents. Think of the dramatic irony of having one of the Green Goblin's victims wind up becoming his true "legacy?" And like Luke Skywalker learning the truth about Darth Vader, it's the kind of thing Spencer and Marvel would hope would make us go, "No...that's not true. That's impossible!"

[stillanerd]

Oh, and one more thing. Why would Gwen, if she's Kindred, want revenge against the man she loved? Because as far as Gwen is concerned, Spider-Man murdered her father, Captain George Stacy. Doesn't matter if it was an accident caused by Spidey webbing Doc Ock's tentacles, or that Captain Stacy died from rescuing a little boy from falling debris caused by Doc Ock losing control of his tentacles. As far as Gwen was concerned, Spider-Man was responsible. It's the very reason why Peter, who had planned on telling Gwen that he was Spider-Man beforehand, never did so after Captain Stacy's death. It's because he knew that Gwen blamed Spidey for what happened to her father and would never forgive him for it if she knew the truth.

And if you think about it, this could very well be the "sin" that Peter has forgotten about according to Kindred. After all, Peter still remembers and blames himself for Uncle Ben's death. He still remembers and blames himself for Gwen's death. But when was the last time Peter remembered and blamed himself for Captain Stacy's death?

[PCN24454]

Oh, and one more thing. Why would Gwen, if she's Kindred, want revenge against the man she loved? Because as far as Gwen is concerned, Spider-Man murdered her father, Captain George Stacy. Doesn't matter if it was an accident caused by Spidey webbing Doc Ock's tentacles, or that Captain Stacy died from rescuing a little boy from falling debris caused by Doc Ock losing control of his tentacles. As far as Gwen was concerned, Spider-Man was responsible. It's the very reason why Peter, who had planned on telling Gwen that he was Spider-Man beforehand, never did so after Captain Stacy's death. It's because he knew that Gwen blamed Spidey for what happened to her father and would never forgive him for it if she knew the truth.

And if you think about it, this could very well be the "sin" that Peter has forgotten about according to Kindred. After all, Peter still remembers and blames himself for Uncle Ben's death. He still remembers and blames himself for Gwen's death. But when was the last time Peter remembered and blamed himself for Captain Stacy's death?

During the time when Mysterio kept “resurrecting” dead cops.

The MARVELS miniseries implies the Gwen eventually got over it, even if she didn’t necessarily forgive him.

[Kingkalamari]

Mysterio appears in Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman #13 and X-Statix: Dead Girl, which are pre-OMD, but both times he is undead, tied directly to Hell. He wouldn't appear alive till Ultimate Spiderman Annual #3, from 2008, and by that time ASM was already in Slott's run, so it's safe to say Kindred freed him sometime after OMD based on the timeline. So he wasnt brought back before OMD occured, he just appeared in an afterlife form. As pointed out, in FMS #13 He even has the chunk of his face blown off by the gun he shot himself with in Guardian Devil.

Kindred doesnt need to be the key to OMD being undone, rather just a walking recuperation of OMD itself. Just like in the final moments of OMD, as MJ points out, their love can overcome even the things Mephisto could do to them, which in itself was all their memories and their timeline plucked away by Mephisto, in his own words. It's certainly no coincidence that as soon as Spencer showed MJ and Parker back together, the following pages had the first appearance of Kindred.

Clone Conspiracy already used Captain Stacy and Gwen, confirmed to be the real deals too, with Gwen forgiving Parker for her and her fathers' deaths in issue #23. Had this not existed I'd definitely say Gwen is a top suspect, but I cant see Spencer making a bunch of retcons to justify Kindred being her, especially stepping on the toes of Slott's run, which Harry being Kindred would also be.

[Spidey_62]

My own wishful thinking wants the sin Peter doesn't remember to be the deal with Mephisto.

I've enjoyed these over two years of endless guessing and speculation towards Kindred's identity. It's a good Spidey staple having the mystery villain in the background, hoping it gets revealed in Last Remains. That seems likely at this point, if the identity reveal is shocking/satisfying that could sustain the wait to the big endgame when perhaps we get to the "why" of it all with Peter having more knowledge for the second go. I'm really at a loss for what the overall thing Kindred is after so far, besides from enacting some kind of horrible revenge on Peter for something he's done/his own hypocracy- so I'm curious to find out what the character is really trying to do beyond that.

[Hugo Strange]

If Kindred is Peter's Soul and what he want is about the deal in OMD, why would Kindred involve Norman? He has nothing to do with OMD.

[Kingkalamari]

Like #30 and #31 show, Norman's actions directly made Parker (and MJ) the people they are now, stealing away their youth and innonence, and certainly there is a side of Peter who wants Osborn to suffer for everything hes done or gotten away with, as theres no greater threat to Parker than Osborn. That same terror is what made Kindred take the form he did, and the parallels are right there in the name, pulled from kindred spirits, which per its definition is "a person who's interests or attitudes are simalar to one's own".

[xpyred]

Clone Conspiracy already used Captain Stacy and Gwen, confirmed to be the real deals too, with Gwen forgiving Parker for her and her fathers' deaths in issue #23. Had this not existed I'd definitely say Gwen is a top suspect, but I cant see Spencer making a bunch of retcons to justify Kindred being her, especially stepping on the toes of Slott's run, which Harry being Kindred would also be.

I think this point has been brought up before in this thread but after reading Stillanerd's posts I feel like it is entirely possible for it to be Gwen. Think about it - Gwen Stacy died 7 or so years ago correct? I say 7 years because that was the span of years that was given during the 90's Clone Saga. Let's say 7 years have past since Gwen died. That Gwen died and her soul or whatever went to hell for whatever reason. Then you have Clone Conspiracy Gwen who made peace with Peter. The problem is that this clone Gwen who remembers everything that has occurred is still not the same Gwen who possibly died and went to hell. The original Gwen never made peace. She died and that was it. This "resurrected" Gwen might remember everything up to her death, but she doesn't have the resurrected soul of the Gwen that may or may not be in hell.

I am confusing myself... what I am trying to say is something si ilar to the time travel explanation the Hulk gave in Endgame. If Gwen died and didn't make peace with Peter in 1972, why would 2016 Clone Conspiracy Gwen who makes peace with Peter negate the original dead gwen?

[Kingkalamari]

I think this point has been brought up before in this thread but after reading Stillanerd's posts I feel like it is entirely possible for it to be Gwen. Think about it - Gwen Stacy died 7 or so years ago correct? I say 7 years because that was the span of years that was given during the 90's Clone Saga. Let's say 7 years have past since Gwen died. That Gwen died and her soul or whatever went to hell for whatever reason. Then you have Clone Conspiracy Gwen who made peace with Peter. The problem is that this clone Gwen who remembers everything that has occurred is still not the same Gwen who possibly died and went to hell. The original Gwen never made peace. She died and that was it. This "resurrected" Gwen might remember everything up to her death, but she doesn't have the resurrected soul of the Gwen that may or may not be in hell.

I am confusing myself... what I am trying to say is something si ilar to the time travel explanation the Hulk gave in Endgame. If Gwen died and didn't make peace with Peter in 1972, why would 2016 Clone Conspiracy Gwen who makes peace with Peter negate the original dead gwen?

The Clone Conspiracy clones were all stated to have the original souls of their original body, confirmed by Dr Strange multiple times(including Spencer's run with Billy in Hunted!) So everybody who was there is considered to be the originals. Barring a retcon by Spencer, for all accounts that was the original Gwen, soul and all who made peace with Parker.

[Morgoth]

Aside from the fact that Mysterio, as has already been pointed out, was resurrected before One More Day took place, Marvel has no plans of ever undoing One More Day.

We can't be sure about that. Theoretically speaking, to nullify a plot that almost the entire fanbase hates more than anything, is not that unusual aspiration. Moreover, the connection with OMD is still obvious here.

[NC_Yankee]

Like #30 and #31 show, Norman's actions directly made Parker (and MJ) the people they are now, stealing away their youth and innonence, and certainly there is a side of Peter who wants Osborn to suffer for everything hes done or gotten away with, as theres no greater threat to Parker than Osborn. That same terror is what made Kindred take the form he did, and the parallels are right there in the name, pulled from kindred spirits, which per its definition is "a person who's interests or attitudes are simalar to one's own".

Norman Osborn is guilty of a lot of things, but taking away the “Youth and innocence” of Peter and MJ is not one of them. Peter lost his innocence in Amazing Fantasy 15 ( Uncle Ben’s death), and his youth in ASM 50, where he grew up and realized Spider-Man is a necessity. As for MJ, while Aunt May felt she was the best match for Peter, she was a wild child until ASM 122. People forget she abandoned her sister to move to New York, so her innocence was lost long before she met Osborn or even Peter. Indirectly, Osborn’s actions forced her to grow up, and she did not abandon Peter, ( unlike how she failed her sister). As for Gwen, here is another reason why I think it is her. Comic books and movies these days are to a large extent about “Pushing The Envelope” seeing how far the audience will accept things. Gwen as Kindred is just another step in that process. I admit to being someone who does not care for it ( which is why I was not only angered but upset by The Joker movie ( especially the killing of the Wayne’s in front of little Bruce)). Spencer has a difficult job, he needs to push the envelope ( because that is what the audience demands these days), but he also knows Spider-Man readers are a very different “Breed of cat.” Most of us do not like the OMD, Sins Past, Clone Saga type of stories, and we do not forgive nor forget them ( I am at the top of that list). So he has to thread the needle: Go in a different direction because Harry is meh, but still not anger the readers. That is a big reason why I see it being Gwen but erasing OMD in the process.

[Dzika_Sowa]

I, too, would like to believe that Kindred is Peter before OMD, but if that were the case, the Marvel Marketing Machine wouldn't stop talking about it.

I think Spencer is just playing with our expectations at this point.

But still... it would be great if it Kindred and Spencers run turned out to be a solutions to OMD. Pre-OMD Peter is actually my third candidate for Kindred, right after Gwen and Harry.

Oh, and Stillanerd, I believe that Harry was featured on some motion comic on YouTube, when Absolutne Carnage was published. I remember him fighting with Norman.

[NC_Yankee]

I, too, would like to believe that Kindred is Peter before OMD, but if that were the case, the Marvel Marketing Machine wouldn't stop talking about it.

I think Spencer is just playing with our expectations at this point.

But still... it would be great if it Kindred and Spencers run turned out to be a solutions to OMD. Pre-OMD Peter is actually my third candidate for Kindred, right after Gwen and Harry.

Oh, and Stillanerd, I believe that Harry was featured on some motion comic on YouTube, when Absolutne Carnage was published. I remember him fighting with Norman.

The cover of ASM 55 is one big reason I do not see Peter as Kindred. Peter has already done two things that made him sick. 1; Saving Norman Osborn. 2: Teaming up with him. In order for that cover to be accurate ( especially the quote “How Peter looks at himself” something so terrible had to have happened: 1: Gwen as Kindred and Peter kills her. 2: MJ dies. 3: Aunt May dies. 4: Both Gwen as Kindred and MJ or more likely Aunt May dies. I am thinking of the “No one dies” idea having to be sacrificed for the greater good. What could be the “Greater good”? Gwen as Kindred and Peter must save himself, or MJ or even Aunt May. We know Gwen does not like Aunt May and we know what Peter did to Fisk over Aunt May. I would be shocked if Gwen is Kindred and MJ dies, but it could happen and that would send him over the edge ( something Amazing Fantasy 15 and ASM 121 did not)

[xpyred]

All this Gwen talk and I'm starting to think that Kindred is most likely Captain Stacy. Honestly I could do without Gwen. I'm so fed up with Gwen in general. A few people have stated that Gwen made peace with Peter and also have mentioned that Spencer probably won't devalue what Slott wrote. I'm all seriousness what if Kindred is captain stacy. Resurrecting Sin-Eater was to hurt Spider-Man with another person he failed to help (Jean Dewolff) but also connects George Stacy with Stan Carter and Dewolff because they were all cops. Kingpin kneeling to Kindred could be because maybe just maybe George wasn't squeaky clean. And George and his brother had met Osborn before in the Spectacular Spider-Man -1 in 1998. The outburst Kindred has when Peter reveals himself to Black Cat is because Peter had the audacity to reveal himself to Felicia but never revealed himself to Gwen.