Thoughts on Kindred?

[NC_Yankee]

Wow, people really hate Gwen.

I do not hate Gwen ( although I find her inferior to MJ and Felicia). The only Parker Woman I hate is Cindy Moon. I just think she is Kindred.

[PCN24454]

I do not hate Gwen ( although I find her inferior to MJ and Felicia). The only Parker Woman I hate is Cindy Moon. I just think she is Kindred.

If Kindred is someone that no one likes, then the impact of the reveal is lost.

There's no point, and it'd only serve to trivialize the whole plotline.

[Snoop Dogg]

does kindred like eating lobster just really digging into it since he's intentionally uggo and has such intimidating chompers

[Gwen Parker]

I agree with what Kingkalamari was saying earlier. Kindred's identity seems to be the big mystery here, but it probably isn't as important to the story as what Kindred is planning for Peter. Whoever Kindred ends up being, Last Remains is going to be groundbreaking and therefore I will not be disappointed with the event no matter who Kindred is revealed to be.

[NC_Yankee]

I agree with what Kingkalamari was saying earlier. Kindred's identity seems to be the big mystery here, but it probably isn't as important to the story as what Kindred is planning for Peter. Whoever Kindred ends up being, Last Remains is going to be groundbreaking and therefore I will not be disappointed with the event no matter who Kindred is revealed to be.

I doubt it will be groundbreaking. The only groundbreaking issues ( for good or bad).were Life Story, Amazing Fantasy 15, ASM 33, 50 and 121. Sins Past and OMD. Even great comics like Kraven’s Last Hunt or Kid Who Collected Spider-Man we’re not groundbreaking.

[Hugo Strange]

We will know if it's a groundbreaking when we read it. Better not expect too much because it will be easier to be disappointed.

And no, Kindred identity is important. If his identity is disappointing, the story itself will be kind of disappointing too.

[Gwen Parker]

I didn't say his identity wasn't important. The man behind the bandages does matter, but the plot is what matters most to a story. Think books like Great Expectations; its the complex and inspiring plot that makes the story so great, not any one character or development. As long as Last Remains has a great story and affects the Spider-Man saga in an important way, I'll like it.

[bob.schoonover]

I didn't say his identity wasn't important. The man behind the bandages does matter, but the plot is what matters most to a story. Think books like Great Expectations; its the complex and inspiring plot that makes the story so great, not any one character or development. As long as Last Remains has a great story and affects the Spider-Man saga in an important way, I'll like it.

Should I start a different thread for my "Great Expectations sucks" thoughts?

On topic, I think you're not necessarily wrong about Last Remains, but I do think the perceived story quality in the moment will be dramatically affected by the Kindred reveal. That is to say, it probably needs to be convincing to the reader that (A) Kindred's long-teased beef with Peter is in some sense valid and (B) Kindred is particularly suited to having his demonic powers for fans to think of LR as an instant classic.

For (A), what I mean is if it turns out that Kindred is the cop who was chasing the burglar in AF15, and then it's revealed that Peter letting him escape cost the cop his job, he turned to a life of crime, and he died as Henchman #3 in some scheme of Norman Osborn's, then I think a lot of people are going to think "Well, that's a bit much" and kind of check out. If it's Gwen, Harry, pre-OMD Peter's essence, a different Stacy, etc., at least the sense of enmity will check out with the long history of Spider-man.

What I mean by (B) is that if we're all scratching our heads going "Why was Uncle Ben in Hell in the first place?" or "How did a sniveling coward like Bennet Brant work his way through the ranks of Hell?" then we're not paying attention to the rest of the story while we're waiting for justification for the head scratcher.

To be very clear, this is not to say that Last Remains can't be considered a classic well after, even if the Kindred reveal is lackluster. I just think it's probably wrong to think that in the short term, the plot can be so good that many won't be disappointed with the story generally if they don't like the Kindred reveal.

[NC_Yankee]

Should I start a different thread for my "Great Expectations sucks" thoughts?

On topic, I think you're not necessarily wrong about Last Remains, but I do think the perceived story quality in the moment will be dramatically affected by the Kindred reveal. That is to say, it probably needs to be convincing to the reader that (A) Kindred's long-teased beef with Peter is in some sense valid and (B) Kindred is particularly suited to having his demonic powers for fans to think of LR as an instant classic.

For (A), what I mean is if it turns out that Kindred is the cop who was chasing the burglar in AF15, and then it's revealed that Peter letting him escape cost the cop his job, he turned to a life of crime, and he died as Henchman #3 in some scheme of Norman Osborn's, then I think a lot of people are going to think "Well, that's a bit much" and kind of check out. If it's Gwen, Harry, pre-OMD Peter's essence, a different Stacy, etc., at least the sense of enmity will check out with the long history of Spider-man.

What I mean by (B) is that if we're all scratching our heads going "Why was Uncle Ben in Hell in the first place?" or "How did a sniveling coward like Bennet Brant work his way through the ranks of Hell?" then we're not paying attention to the rest of the story while we're waiting for justification for the head scratcher.

To be very clear, this is not to say that Last Remains can't be considered a classic well after, even if the Kindred reveal is lackluster. I just think it's probably wrong to think that in the short term, the plot can be so good that many won't be disappointed with the story generally if they don't like the Kindred reveal.

I agree 100%. What makes a story memorable or not is time. I think of a movie called Plan 9 From Outer Space. It is considered by many the worst film of All-Time, but it is better remembered then many Oscar winners ( think Geena Davis who actually won two and most people cannot name either film she won for). Will Kindred be talked about like Kraven’s Last Hunt ( good) or Sins Past ( bad)? Let’s see in 2030.

[xpyred]

My new theory is that Kindred is the Burglar. Spider-Man scared life out of the Burglar and let him die of a heart attack. The burglar also briefly worked with Mysterio when Mysterio was using the Reinhart disguise.

If Kindred is the burglar, why would he have an emotional outburst at the sight of Peter revealing his civilian identity to Black Cat? My ridiculous stretch is that the burglar is ticked off that Peter "wrongly attacked him" while he was burglarizing the Parker home looking for Malone's treasure whereas the Black Cat is also a high profile burglar and Peter deciding to reveal himself to her shows that Peter is a hypocrite.

What is the connection to Kingpin? Who knows.

What is the connection to Osborn? Realistically, only a few people have defeated Spider-Man; the Burglar, Norman Osborn/Green Goblin, Harry Osborn (the fake parents storyline), Kraven the Hunter and Doctor Octopus. Only 3 of them have truly destroyed Peter's life; the burglar (killed Ben), Norman Osborn (killed Gwen, clone saga, Sins Past) and Harry (again - the fake parents) I'm sure reality can be stretched to have Norman somehow connected to the Burglar - which itself is annoying having Norman attached to Peter's life in so many ways.

[NC_Yankee]

My new theory is that Kindred is the Burglar. Spider-Man scared life out of the Burglar and let him die of a heart attack. The burglar also briefly worked with Mysterio when Mysterio was using the Reinhart disguise.

If Kindred is the burglar, why would he have an emotional outburst at the sight of Peter revealing his civilian identity to Black Cat? My ridiculous stretch is that the burglar is ticked off that Peter "wrongly attacked him" while he was burglarizing the Parker home looking for Malone's treasure whereas the Black Cat is also a high profile burglar and Peter deciding to reveal himself to her shows that Peter is a hypocrite.

What is the connection to Kingpin? Who knows.

What is the connection to Osborn? Realistically, only a few people have defeated Spider-Man; the Burglar, Norman Osborn/Green Goblin, Harry Osborn (the fake parents storyline), Kraven the Hunter and Doctor Octopus. Only 3 of them have truly destroyed Peter's life; the burglar (killed Ben), Norman Osborn (killed Gwen, clone saga, Sins Past) and Harry (again - the fake parents) I'm sure reality can be stretched to have Norman somehow connected to the Burglar - which itself is annoying having Norman attached to Peter's life in so many ways.

There are others who defeated Spider-Man. Silver Surfer, Hulk Dr Doom, Mephisto to name a few. The problem with Burglar is What does he have to do with Fisk or Osborn. Also why should he care about Gwen or MJ? I am still picking Gwen but there are more obvious candidates then Burglar. Who? Harry, Morlun ( although I hope not for obvious reasons), Ezekiel, Wrath and even Crime Master ( if someone is looking for an obscure Ditko villain who knew Fisk, Osborn and Gwen and died).

[Gwen Parker]

Should I start a different thread for my "Great Expectations sucks" thoughts?

On topic, I think you're not necessarily wrong about Last Remains, but I do think the perceived story quality in the moment will be dramatically affected by the Kindred reveal. That is to say, it probably needs to be convincing to the reader that (A) Kindred's long-teased beef with Peter is in some sense valid and (B) Kindred is particularly suited to having his demonic powers for fans to think of LR as an instant classic.

For (A), what I mean is if it turns out that Kindred is the cop who was chasing the burglar in AF15, and then it's revealed that Peter letting him escape cost the cop his job, he turned to a life of crime, and he died as Henchman #3 in some scheme of Norman Osborn's, then I think a lot of people are going to think "Well, that's a bit much" and kind of check out. If it's Gwen, Harry, pre-OMD Peter's essence, a different Stacy, etc., at least the sense of enmity will check out with the long history of Spider-man.

What I mean by (B) is that if we're all scratching our heads going "Why was Uncle Ben in Hell in the first place?" or "How did a sniveling coward like Bennet Brant work his way through the ranks of Hell?" then we're not paying attention to the rest of the story while we're waiting for justification for the head scratcher.

To be very clear, this is not to say that Last Remains can't be considered a classic well after, even if the Kindred reveal is lackluster. I just think it's probably wrong to think that in the short term, the plot can be so good that many won't be disappointed with the story generally if they don't like the Kindred reveal.

I think you have some good thoughts for Last Remains, but I will see you in court for the Great Expectations comment! =)

[NC_Yankee]

I think you have some good thoughts for Last Remains, but I will see you in court for the Great Expectations comment! =)

Great Expectations: Gwen as Miss Havisham. That is an interesting idea

[PCN24454]

Should I start a different thread for my "Great Expectations sucks" thoughts?

On topic, I think you're not necessarily wrong about Last Remains, but I do think the perceived story quality in the moment will be dramatically affected by the Kindred reveal. That is to say, it probably needs to be convincing to the reader that (A) Kindred's long-teased beef with Peter is in some sense valid and (B) Kindred is particularly suited to having his demonic powers for fans to think of LR as an instant classic.

For (A), what I mean is if it turns out that Kindred is the cop who was chasing the burglar in AF15, and then it's revealed that Peter letting him escape cost the cop his job, he turned to a life of crime, and he died as Henchman #3 in some scheme of Norman Osborn's, then I think a lot of people are going to think "Well, that's a bit much" and kind of check out. If it's Gwen, Harry, pre-OMD Peter's essence, a different Stacy, etc., at least the sense of enmity will check out with the long history of Spider-man.

What I mean by (B) is that if we're all scratching our heads going "Why was Uncle Ben in Hell in the first place?" or "How did a sniveling coward like Bennet Brant work his way through the ranks of Hell?" then we're not paying attention to the rest of the story while we're waiting for justification for the head scratcher.

To be very clear, this is not to say that Last Remains can't be considered a classic well after, even if the Kindred reveal is lackluster. I just think it's probably wrong to think that in the short term, the plot can be so good that many won't be disappointed with the story generally if they don't like the Kindred reveal.

Considering how annoyed I get whenever people ask questions about a series that they haven't finished yet, I have to respect what you're saying.

[TheCape]

I'm gonna put my money in the crazy theory and said that Kindred is Judas Traveller