Phoenix force: Universal or multiversal?

[GMikey]

Im my headcanon all the phoenix hosts across the multiverse share this hivemind wich calls itself The Phoenix. So I would say multiversal but who knows anymore, Marvel really fucked up the phoenix mythos this past 15 year or so.

Well... I'm not sure that's gonna count. The problem is, there are loopholes in which, other characters could now be considered contenders as "multiversal" dealing with that logic. It's kind of like Eternity and Infinity. They both operate within their specific universe, and... according to the evidence presented, the Phoenix being an abstract entity, would also operate within its particular universe, not that it can't necessarily travel to other dimensions. But it does belong to a particular universe, servicing that realm with life, psionics, etc, etc.

Whats the difference between an multiversal and universal entity besides one 'different' version of same person in every universe and one being found in every universe?

Good question, I asked that, and what was presented to me, was that there's only one version of a multiversal entity, as they do not exist in any one universe, but outside of them, existing within the realm containing all universes. This is where Multi-Eternity was brought up, as Multi-Eternity IS multiversal, where as universal versions of him as "Eternity" exists per universe. A "Multi-Phoenix" has never been established, and even as WPOC, she only affected a potential reality/universe, which is not considered a "multiversal" feat. Multiversal, is Magus using an INCOMPLETE Infinity Gauntlet to merge two universes together. This instance was used to explain why Infinity Gems are indeed multiversal in power, but it would require beings of exceptional power themselves, to realize the Infinity Gems' full potential. Thus, the Infinity Gems used by Thanos and others, can only manipulate their respective universe.

The phoenix consciousness that talks is Multiversal or at least has awareness on a multiversal level and the avatars are universal

That could be stated, but... to some, I know how these people think, they would say that's a weak argument. The Phoenix Consciousness is unitary, and connects with all Phoenixes of other universes... but it becomes hairy as other entities become contenders now of being considered multiversal. Great examples used were Gambit as the New Sun, and Havok, in becoming the Nexus of Realities. New Sun literally traversed the multiverse/multiple universes, and affected them, and Havok became the Nexus of ALL Realities, using his powers. Magus is also mentioned, as he took an INCOMPLETE Infinity Gauntlet (which is why many consider the Infinity Gems greater than the Abstract Entities, and multiversal in power) to merge two universes together. These are some of the most multiversal feats discussed, and yet, none of these characters are considered "multiversal". Multiversal is being defined as a singular entity, with abilities affecting more than one universe. The Phoenix has yet to shown that, as I've seen presented...

It was a major plot point in Hickman's Avengers that the infinity stones only work in their home dimension, making them universal but not multiversal. Phoenix force is multiversal, plenty of evidence has been shared already.

There are multiversal feats mentioned of the Infinity Gems. The primary one being Magus wielding an incomplete, Infinity Gauntlet to merge two universes together. Also, they were remnants of the very first cosmos so. It was explained by some that the Infinity Gems can only affect according to their wielder. Thanos only has the power to affect his own universe, whereas Magus, a more powerful entity, had the power to use only a few of the stones, to affect more than one universe. The Phoenix has yet shown affect of more than one universe, as far as I've been shown. And even what I've researched... I've not seen a solid multiversal feat of the Phoenix.

I mean I doubt The Dominion (who seem to be able to operate multiversaly) would be scared of the Phoenix if it wasn't too able to operate on a multiversal level.

Um... okay ^_^
================================

I'm playing devil's advocate, to really bring out if there's an irrefutable instance of the Phoenix having a multiversal feat, and being multiversal in totality. I... want these new writers to have a full, true perspective of what the Phoenix is, before... reconstructing it (as I'm seeing them do...)

[GMikey]

Beyond TOAA, Living Tribunal, Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion you are going to find a few examples of clear evidence of Multiversal "beings", most of the times authors are going to have conflict arguments about the matter and fans will use their own headcanon to fill the holes based on their own preferences.

I know that my post is basically a "no answer" but i dont think that you can come to a solid conclusion.

I must say, thank you for an honest answer... and one that might be the answer to it all.

It is hard asking fans, cuz it seems fans either answer out of loving the Phoenix Force, or not loving it. I've not found ONE fan that is... answering objectively. Many of the creative ppl on this project, are NOT Phoenix fans, and many of the Marvel fans involved, are also not Phoenix fans. So... I want to make sure that, what's being proposed is solid, true to canon, but as they want to, also add something fresh and new.

Its probably best to say... "writer's interpretation". I wish the writers did create something solid and more concrete where the mythos and cosmology is concerned. Then there'd be no confusion

[Phoenixx9]

I did try to respond objectively, but as I stated before answering, it is a hard question, and one that I am not conclusively sure about. I gave examples that I was aware of to try to back up the points. In all the decades of loving the PF, I never dwell, wonder or care if it is Universal VS Multiversal.

Marvel has convoluted the issue or not definitively stated it or has gone back and forth on the topic. At this point, it is an objective view to say one could go either way with Universal or Multiversal Force.

I understand the creator wants as much accurate information on the PF as possible. But also, I do not objectively think that a problem with the Phoenix Force is whether it is a Universal or Multiversal Force, but the host of myriad inconsistencies, convolutions, inaccuracies, writers unknowing and/or uncaring about the PF and what has been laid down in the past as well as them having the PF bonding with anyone/everyone.

I tried to provide as much info as I could on the topic.

[GMikey]

I did try to respond objectively, but as I stated before answering, it is a hard question, and one that I am not conclusively sure about. I gave examples that I was aware of to try to back up the points. In all the decades of loving the PF, I never dwell, wonder or care if it is Universal VS Multiversal.

Marvel has convoluted the issue or not definitively stated it or has gone back and forth on the topic. At this point, it is an objective view to say one could go either way with Universal or Multiversal Force.

I understand the creator wants as much accurate information on the PF as possible. But also, I do not objectively think that a problem with the Phoenix Force is whether it is a Universal or Multiversal Force, but the host of myriad inconsistencies, convolutions, inaccuracies, writers unknowing and/or uncaring about the PF and what has been laid down in the past as well as them having the PF bonding with anyone/everyone.

I tried to provide as much info as I could on the topic.

Yes and I failed to thank you for your objective answer

You know why I'm asking these questions, more than anyone else, and... as the base plot is being written as we speak, I REALLY want this to be something good for ALL Marvel Fans. Knowing how hard it is to establish and narrate a story for the Phoenix, I really do want it to be good, and I'm up against those that... are just more caught up in their own ideas, rather than... marry those ideas with the true canon.

I do fear that, in the end... this goes back to what you're saying, and another member here... and that is... it's kinda up to the writer's interpretation. I am OCD-ish and... this is more coming from me than anyone else. The writer (and writers) is in fact comfortable with the plot she's writing and soon will present. Me... I just want this to be good, and correctly representing canon (despite all the changes, you'll see). We're about to bring up Giruad, Rachel and Forge, so... I will definitely soon be asking some other... less convoluted questions soon LOL

I'm gonna PM you, prolly tonight. I think I need to

[otipep_90]

Though I haven’t read the stories of the Phoenix in the Malibuverse, I know that the 616 manifestation/iteration of the Phoenix traveled to the Malibuverse and then came back to 616 Jean Grey during Morrison’s New X-Men run. I don’t know if any of the Phoenix Work it did during this time would be considered “Multiversal”.

Bringing up the concept of a Multi-Infinity abstract and the universal Infinities, makes me question why the Phoenix Force would not be any different. Are there any stories that contradict there being a Multi-Phoenix apart from the universal Phoenixes?

What is the difference between the White Phoenix of the Crown and from all the other Phoenix? Why is it that when the Phoenix host dies they are sent to heal in the WHR, outside of their local universe? What if the White Phoenix of the Crown is the Multi-Phoenix?

As a Jean Grey fan that would like to see the unique relationship of the Phoenix and Jean reestablished in a respectful way to what was originally intended, I think this would help explain why the Phoenix favors Jean above all other host.

Jean is an avatar of the White Phoenix of the Crown. Who else have we seen as a host to the WPoTC besides Hope Summers? Even in that case it was alluded that Jean Grey had momentarily bonded with Hope to form a WPoTC-Jean-Hope trinity.

The only Phoenix Work we have seen the WPoTC do was to undo the alternate future of Here Comes Tomorrow (which is arguably a Multiversal act) and No More Mutants (which was a Multiversal spell thanks to the Life Force). The undoing of the No More Mutants spell was a Multiversal action.

See No More Humans OGN, which also included an Alternate Phoenix that fused with Teen Jean and an Alternate adult Jean to return all the humans from the pocket dimension they were trapped in. It took the Phoenix to do this since all the humans had to return to the exact place and conditions they had been before disappearing. This is another instance where the Phoenix Force bonds with a host from outside its native universe, like Amber Hunt and Prime of the Malibuverse.

* Post Edited

[Wolverine12]

There are multiversal feats mentioned of the Infinity Gems. The primary one being Magus wielding an incomplete, Infinity Gauntlet to merge two universes together. Also, they were remnants of the very first cosmos so. It was explained by some that the Infinity Gems can only affect according to their wielder. Thanos only has the power to affect his own universe, whereas Magus, a more powerful entity, had the power to use only a few of the stones, to affect more than one universe. The Phoenix has yet shown affect of more than one universe, as far as I've been shown. And even what I've researched... I've not seen a solid multiversal feat as far as I've been shown. And even what I've researched... I've not seen a solid universal feat of the Phoenix.

It seems that you are applying uneven standards to the two subjects. You aren't counting the Phoenix breaching every known reality because it was during some sort of cosmic alignment and you aren't counting the white not room because...well I'm not sure why as multiversal Phoenix wielders are shown on the page interacting. However it does count when Magus wields infinity stones to combine 2 universes even though he is an outside force so it shouldn't count because the infinity stones didn't act without his help just like the Phoenix couldn't expand with out help. Then we hand wave the recent cannon that literally states infinity stones only work in their home universe, it was a major plot point of Hickmans run on Avengers and it was brought up again in his secret wars series. Not to sound rude but it sounds like you've already made a decision on what counts and what doesn't. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or invalid but the conversation seems redundant if we don't apply equal standards and only look at continuity that fits our own argument.

[GMikey]

Before I EVEN begin... let me explain myself...

I'm NOT trying to be closed minded, I'm OPEN minded to the Phoenix being a multiversal entity... however, the writers around me are NOT too keen on that idea, and insist otherwise. I've said multiple times that "I'm playing the devil's advocate" to try and tear every possible answer down, until I find some hard cold evidence of the Phoenix being a multiversal entity. That's what I'm trying to do.

This is important to me, and I feel severely misunderstood. Anyone writing me off as some "Phoenix/Jean hater" doesn't realize I'm trying to make sure... the Marvel cosmology doesn't receive anymore damage than it already has, from previous writers. There are some new writers, writing a NEW project, that WILL affect Marvel canon, from the side of the fandom, all the way up to the ACTUAL official, Marvel canon. You all have no idea what's going on, and... I'm the only one from inside a developmental bubble willing to leak what I can, to collect better insight on the canon, and give it to this new breed of writers.

Now to answer the most recent questions...

Though I haven’t read the stories of the Phoenix in the Malibuverse, I know that the 616 manifestation/iteration of the Phoenix traveled to the Malibuverse and then came back to 616 Jean Grey during Morrison’s New X-Men run. I don’t know if any of the Phoenix Work it did during this time would be considered “Multiversal”.

Bringing up the concept of a Multi-Infinity abstract and the universal Infinities, makes me question why the Phoenix Force would not be any different. Are there any stories that contradict there being a Multi-Phoenix apart from the universal Phoenixes?

What is the difference between the White Phoenix of the Crown and from all the other Phoenix? Why is it that when the Phoenix host dies they are sent to heal in the WHR, outside of their local universe? What if the White Phoenix of the Crown is the Multi-Phoenix?

As a Jean Grey fan that would like to see the unique relationship of the Phoenix and Jean reestablished in a respectful way to what was originally intended, I think this would help explain why the Phoenix favors Jean above all other host.

Jean is an avatar of the White Phoenix of the Crown. Who else have we seen as a host to the WPoTC besides Hope Summers? Even in that case it was alluded that Jean Grey had momentarily bonded with Hope to form a WPoTC-Jean-Hope trinity.

The only Phoenix Work we have seen the WPoTC do was to undo the alternate future of Here Comes Tomorrow (which is arguably a Multiversal act) and No More Mutants (which was a Multiversal spell thanks to the Life Force). The undoing of the No More Mutants spell was a Multiversal action. See No More Humans OGN, which also included an Alternate Phoenix that fused with Teen Jean and an Alternate adult Jean to return all the humans from the pocket dimension they were trapped in. It took the Phoenix to do this since all the h I’mans had to return to the exact place and conditions they had been before disappearing.

* Post Edited

So... here's what's being said... NOT MY WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF... OTHER MARVEL FANS, AND A HOST OF NEW WRITERS...
The Phoenix Force is a "universal" entity, which exists within its given universe, not to say it can't or doesn't travel to other realities. Despite there being a multiversal hub of the Phoenix (WHR), it doesn't make each iteration of the Phoenix itself "multiversal". Then they used the MCU Avengers, who used the Quantum Realm to travel through time and even other realities. However, they're access to a multiversal realm (whether they own it or not) doesn't make THEM multiversal entities... (or does it? I'm confused)... They state that the Phoenix Force is on par with Infinity and Eternity, who are universal level beings, but isn't on par with Multi-Eternity and Multi-Infinity, who are multiversal level beings. The Phoenix Consciousness is described as multiversal, however, they state that ALL consciousness is "multiversal", and is why people in meditation can travel to other dimensions/timelines/realities as... tons of metaphysical explanation I'm not reiterating LOL

White Phoenix of the Crown has never been stated as a multiversal entity, only as the perfect merging of host and Phoenix into one. This is why Jean Grey was able to hold an orphan universe (not 616 as I was told) and change fate, by changing Scott's mind. There isn't anything to solidly substantiate White Phoenix (so they say) as a mutliversal entity. No More Mutants only affected one reality/universe, thus its not mutliversal.

Now the chief writer and artist, DOES want to do better justice to the relationship between Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force, and her new story is light-years better than any of the plots I've read, since Claremont's Phoenix Saga. The issue is, this writer is still not a Jean fan, and has plans to actually shift the attention to a "new Cosmic X-Man". So... unfortunately, Jean Grey/Phoenix winds up taking the backseat as their story develops. This new story idea IS full of amazing, unique ideas, and I do like this direction. I just want to make sure... the Phoenix is being done accurately.

So... what is being counted as mutliversal feats, were these examples...

Magus/Adam Warlock using the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet to fuse two universes together. This counts as multiversal, as it involved more than one universe. Also, this is one of several arguments used to substantiate why the Infinity Gems are multiversal. Then there is Gambit as The New Sun, who traveled to multiple universes, and actually affected them. Havok is one of the best examples as, he became the Nexus of ALL Realities, thus a nigh ultimate expression of "multiversal". Yet... none of them are considered "multiversal" despite their feats. Franklin Richards is actually able to create universes (not just manipulate them) and generate actual energy, in which the Phoenix doesn't do. Yet, none of these characters are considered "multiversal" despite having actual multiversal feats and powers.

So... that's where I am, and where I need help. What is some solid evidence of the Phoenix affecting multiple universes. That's what I need and what I'm looking for, to report back

[GMikey]

It seems that you are applying uneven standards to the two subjects. You aren't counting the Phoenix breaching every known reality because it was during some sort of cosmic alignment and you aren't counting the white not room because...well I'm not sure why as multiversal Phoenix wielders are shown on the page interacting. However it does count when Magus wields infinity stones to combine 2 universes even though he is an outside force so it shouldn't count because the infinity stones didn't act without his help just like the Phoenix couldn't expand with out help. Then we hand wave the recent cannon that literally states infinity stones only work in their home universe, it was a major plot point of Hickmans run on Avengers and it was brought up again in his secret wars series. Not to sound rude but it sounds like you've already made a decision on what counts and what doesn't. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong or invalid but the conversation seems redundant if we don't apply equal standards and only look at continuity that fits our own argument.

Okay... so just as I did the last commenter, let me explain myself...

As I've stated on some of my replies... I'm deliberately playing the devil's advocate, to try and collect NEW info that I can take back to these new writers. THEY... are quite stubborn, and the Marvel fans that surround them, aren't Phoenix fans. I'm pressing the way that I am, so that someone can provide something crystal clear (like what Magus did) to demonstrate the Phoenix being truly multiversal. This is important to me, because I know where these writers are going, and it WILL affect Marvel canon, in the long run.

Most of the arguments presented here, have already been presented before (by Phoenix fans), but were "debunked" by fans that insist that the Phoenix is only universal level cosmic entity. The part about Phoenix Feron creating a tower in every reality, was debunked as an alignment needed to occur for that to happen, thus this wasn't the Phoenix's own power to affect multiple universes. A gateway, acting on its own accord, had to already be active. The White Hot Room doesn't count on the count of Havok becoming an actual Nexus of All Realities (yet still not considered a multiversal being), and other entities (like Doctor Strange, Brother Voodoo) shown to access other dimensions, nexus, and such.

I'll just copy and paste what I wrote above... These are the examples I'm looking for, where the Phoenix is concerned...

Magus/Adam Warlock using the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet to fuse two universes together. This counts as multiversal, as it involved more than one universe. Also, this is one of several arguments used to substantiate why the Infinity Gems are multiversal. Then there is Gambit as The New Sun, who traveled to multiple universes, and actually affected them. Havok is one of the best examples as, he became the Nexus of ALL Realities, thus a nigh ultimate expression of "multiversal". Yet... none of them are considered "multiversal" despite their feats. Franklin Richards is actually able to create universes (not just manipulate them) and generate actual energy, in which the Phoenix has never been shown to do. Yet, none of these characters are considered "multiversal" despite having actual multiversal feats and powers.

So... I'm playing the Devil's Advocate, to spit out as many arguments possible, to deduce what is the Phoenix's irrefutable moment of being a multiversal entity. This way I can hand something to the writers, and they'll have full proof of the Phoenix being multiversal. One of the writers is a highly skilled people's person, he's highly respected and loved within fan circles, and he's gone on about how he down right hates Jean Grey, and have been one of the major players in... influencing more and more to side against Jean Grey as Phoenix. The primary writer, wants to do something with the Phoenix (I can't say) and because of her character development, and focus on a certain other X-Man... she feels the Phoenix needs to be universal, based on what she's researched as well as, what she wants to do for this new narrative.

The Infinity Gems have way more fans it seems, to bump up its power and prowess. I won't lie, there's been a lot of info presented in these discussions of the Infinity Gems being multiversal. However, it is stated that... their multiversal level power can be attained by very powerful entities. Thus Magus can tap into their multiversal power, while Thanos, limited to his own respective universe, cannot. Also, where these new writers wanna take the Infinity Gems... it won't matter what Hickman's Avengers reestablished. It's about to be retconned, and the soon enough future. The Infinity Gems at least have... canon establishment of being multiversal (whether it was retconned or not) but that's gonna be... brought back into the picture soon enough.

The writers have this idea to reconstruct the entirety of the cosmology, and even rewrite how the omniverse even came to be. Many of their ideas are actually awesome, and bring a sense of meaning and expansion that the Marvel Universe would benefit from vastly... the issue is, how far off are they going to go from established canon? To me, they should build on what already exists, and only rewrite something when it straight doesn't make sense.

That's all I'm trying to do. Hope you get it

[ExodusCloak]

That aside no more mutants was stated to be omniversal? The chaos wave was stated as omniversal in Excalibur by the omiversal narrator and at least two more times as multiversal once in Excalibur and once in Endangered species

[ExodusCloak]

At least two more times and i think another in the quest for magik

[otipep_90]

Well GMikey, thank you for coming to the fandom for some additional research and resources. If this new story this new Gen of writers are preparing will both pay respect to the Jean-Phoenix relationship and fix the mess Marvel made with the mythos, then great especially if it affects cannon. However, if Jean Grey as the Phoenix host will get sidelined yet again for another new host, then these writers need to be reined in. The best Phoenix stories were based around Jean per Claremont and Morrison who build off what Claremont‘s revisionist Classic X-Men. The reason why the Phoenix has become so convoluted in the past 15 years is because Jean was in publishing limbo during this time and unavailable. As an X-Men fan and as a Jean Grey fan, giving the Phoenix Force to others (i.e. Phoenix 5) did not enhanced those characters long term nor the mythos. If this is not understood then it will add to the problem of the Phoenix Force being a power-up plot device. The Phoenix Force is far more esoteric in nature than the Infinity Stones/Gems which at the end of the day are enchanted artifacts typical of fantasy/sci-fi stories.

Having a Phoenix Corp that includes multiple Phoenixes form one local universe works (ex: DC’s Green Lanterns), but Jean Grey should be the only White Phoenix of the Crown, and what that means needs to be properly defined. The WPoTC could be the Multiversal Phoenix and only the Jean Grey(s) of the multiverse can achieve this level/bond because it is genetic/predestined like Galan of Taa always becoming Galaticus. To my knowledge the only WPoTC has been Jean and very momentarily Hope Summers (with the hep of Jean Grey as was alluded).

As ExodusCloak pointed out No More Mutants was an Omniveral/Multiversal spell which is why it took the WPoTC to undo it.

[Wolverine12]

The Phoenix Force is one of the oldest known cosmic entities, representing life that has not yet been born, as well as the forces of creation and destruction. The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life. Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. It is the nexus of all psionic energy which does, has, and ever will exist in all realities of the Omniverse,

Straight from the marvel wiki, nexus of all psionic energy in the omniverse. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Phoen...ce_(Earth-616) Case closed.

[GMikey]

That aside no more mutants was stated to be omniversal? The chaos wave was stated as omniversal in Excalibur by the omiversal narrator and at least two more times as multiversal once in Excalibur and once in Endangered species

That... sounds new, as in a new argument. I'm not familiar with it, so... I'll pass it to the writers and fans, see what they think. I can't tell if this is debunkable or not, I'm not the most fluent with comics. I've actually learned a lot during these "debates". Let's see if it holds up

[GMikey]

Well GMikey, thank you for coming to the fandom for some additional research and resources. If this new story this new Gen of writers are preparing will both pay respect to the Jean-Phoenix relationship and fix the mess Marvel made with the mythos, then great especially if it affects cannon. However, if Jean Grey as the Phoenix host will get sidelined yet again for another new host, then these writers need to be reined in. The best Phoenix stories were based around Jean per Claremont and Morrison who build off what Claremont‘s revisionist Classic X-Men. The reason why the Phoenix has become so convoluted in the past 15 years is because Jean was in publishing limbo during this time and unavailable. As an X-Men fan and as a Jean Grey fan, giving the Phoenix Force to others (i.e. Phoenix 5) did not enhanced those characters long term nor the mythos. If this is not understood then it will add to the problem of the Phoenix Force being a power-up plot device. The Phoenix Force is far more esoteric in nature than the Infinity Stones/Gems which at the end of the day are enchanted artifacts typical of fantasy/sci-fi stories.

Having a Phoenix Corp that includes multiple Phoenixes form one local universe works (ex: DC’s Green Lanterns), but Jean Grey should be the only White Phoenix of the Crown, and what that means needs to be properly defined. The WPoTC could be the Multiversal Phoenix and only the Jean Grey(s) of the multiverse can achieve this level/bond because it is genetic/predestined like Galan of Taa always becoming Galaticus. To my knowledge the only WPoTC has been Jean and very momentarily Hope Summers (with the hep of Jean Grey as was alluded).

As ExodusCloak pointed out No More Mutants was an Omniveral/Multiversal spell which is why it took the WPoTC to undo it.

THANK YOU for kinda getting where I'm personally coming from. I WANT to know the truth, and have that truth handed over to these writers, so... they have the best info to work with. But... I HAVE to bring on this argument against the Phoenix Force as a multiversal entity, to find those who are gonna really think or research and present the answers

Let me say this about the chief writer; she WANTS to solidify Jean Grey and her story with the Phoenix, yet allow Jean Grey to develop as her own character, and the Phoenix, as its own entity. Her mission IS to bring respect and a better development of their relationship, and substantiate Jean Grey's important role for the Force. There's no plan to sideline Jean from the Phoenix... however, the plan IS to introduce and focus on a new "Cosmic X-Man". This development is introducing wild and albeit, highly innovative ideas, that I can't go into in right now... but are important for how the new Phoenix narrative develops. THAT'S why this convo is important, and I wish everyone just understood my disposition.

I have to disagree with you on the Infinity Gems... as this will employ some actual esoteric and metaphysical topics, ain't nothing like crystals. From an esoteric perspective, the Crystal transcends spirit itself. The chief writer's domain IS metaphysics, along with computer science, biology, information technology, mechanical engineering, astrophysics, and even digital art and animation... she's an intellectual "jack of all trades". She was just talking about how our DNA, some kind of "apparatus" syncs up with the Kabbalah. So... based on her knowledge, from an esoteric pov (not comic canon per'se) the Crystal trumps the Phoenix as the Crystal preceded what the Phoenix is... that's something she will dive into

So... once again to make this clear, Jean Grey IS the Phoenix in this new work. Despite there being a debate to change the host to a different mutant (as we were bombarded with those who all but PETITIONED for a new one true host), the chief writer stated keep Jean AS Phoenix, and if anything, it'll work best if Jean Grey remains as Phoenix, so she can bring in her new ideas to take the Marvel Cosmos to these new heights. To satisfy non-Phoenix fans tho (and herself admittedly), she said we'll explore these new heights of the cosmos, through the journey of a new Cosmic X-Man, as she attaches her idea to him. This will allow Jean/Phoenix to have a brand new narrative, yet we'd get to explore these insane, new kind of comic adventures, through the lenses of a new omnipotent being/Cosmic X-Man. Everyone wins!-- that's what she said LOL ^_^||

The No More Mutants thing I'll present in the next major chat... That's new and I don't recall hearing that one

[GMikey]

Straight from the marvel wiki, nexus of all psionic energy in the omniverse. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Phoen...ce_(Earth-616) Case closed.

You are going to hate me LOL

Um... the wiki is rejected on the count of being inconsistent, and having incorrect information from time to time. It's used more as a basic guide than, complete truth. Even I myself have found inaccurate information on that wiki... so... case not... quite... closed? ^_^||

So like... I mean, I understand that its your understanding that the Phoenix is multiversal, and hell, maybe even omniversal. I personally don't know. I'm just looking for hard, cold evidence that cannot be refuted, and hand that to these new writers and debaters. These are very fact-checky individuals, and very, um... "accommodating" towards the current think tank of about... I don't know, 6K Marvel fans? And... the majority of them believe the Phoenix IS universal, and even kinda said "hey you know, writers are retconning **** all the time! Just write it as YOU see fit *wink wink*" and... it's a LOOOOOT of **** LOL

I want to be able to have this conversation with those who understand my position, and are trying to assist me, even if I come back to say "unfortunately that info was "debunked" got something else for me?" And my position is... find the TRUTH about the Phoenix so these new talents can put it in proper perspective, as they rewrite it. Especially as they bring in new ideas, that will surely shake a lot of things up.