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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Phoenix force: Universal or multiversal?

    I found a very important link and info about the Phoenix Force, determining whether or not they are universal or multiversal level. Its been a debate whether or not the Phoenix is more powerful than the Infinity Gems, and which is universal level, and multiversal level. Personally, I've NEVER seen anything in comic canon that shows the Phoenix being multiversal, including WPOC. The Infinity Gems, definitely seem to be multiversal or possess multiversal powers. However, there's great debate over such...

    This is important in regards to the Fan Collab Marvel series, and all our new take on the Phoenix Saga. Honestly, it would work in everyone's favor if the Phoenix was universal level, as with what the new story has in store... makes for an amazing cosmic adventure and character development of cosmic beings. Both for the Phoenix and "The Cosmic Rival".

    Here are the links, tell me what you all think

    https://aminoapps.com/c/comics/page/...0power%20level.

    There's more to discuss, but let's get some first opinions

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    I only understand the Phoenix up to Morrison. After that it’s just a mess.

  3. #3
    eXpat Odd Rödney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I only understand the Phoenix up to Morrison. After that it’s just a mess.
    Yeah, pretty much. I would like to see X-Men stories without the Phoenix. It was so refreshing to me when Jean bid goodbye to the Phoenix, I loved that.

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  4. #4

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    We have seen Phoenixes in many various alternate dimensions, but they seem to operate separately. As far as I can tell from the various interpretations of its lore over the years, it does seem to be a constant; wherever there are conscious, sentient beings, a Phoenix Force will be, being the composite of all psionic energy, across spacetime. The White Hot Room seems to imply a trans-dimensionality to the Phoenix Force, as White Phoenix of the Crown Jean was able to hold an entire universe\timeline\dimension in her hands and destroy it in favor of an alternative one. You can't have that if the Phoenix Force isn't multiversal.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    I only understand the Phoenix up to Morrison. After that it’s just a mess.
    So my goal here is to assist these fan writers in this collaborative Marvel anime short series, take the best stuff from canon to be used in restructuring what the Phoenix is, and its relationship with Jean Grey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odd Rödney View Post
    [FONT=Georgia][COLOR="#000080"]

    Yeah, pretty much. I would like to see X-Men stories without the Phoenix. It was so refreshing to me when Jean bid goodbye to the Phoenix, I loved that.
    Well... there's a group of fans that are writing a collaborative animated short series, and in it, they want to change the Phoenix's story so Jean Grey could move on at a certain point as her own character without the Phoenix. However, that doesn't mean we'll be without a "Cosmic X-Man" as one of the other members, does rise to becoming a cosmic being in his own right. He would separate from the X-Men to embark on his own solo voyages, thus leaving the X-Men without the Phoenix or any other cosmically charged team member.

    However, getting to that point of the story, is where things get weird. That's why I'm asking this question, to get answers on how the Phoenix should be best presented

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Hi GMickey,

    Hmmm, one tough question. I will attempt to provde an answer.

    Originally, I thought the PF was a Universal Force.

    But later, we had a Phoenix Force which megerd-with-as-opposed-to-replacing the Jean Grey of Earth-811. This Jean Grey became the mother to Rachel Summers.

    A little later, we see a Phoenix Force dormant in a volcano on Haven in the 31st Century on Earth-691. This PF merged with Giraud of Haven to become Phoenix IX

    So this would lead me to believe it is a Multiversal Entity. But, could it be that the PF of E-616 just traveled to both E-811 and future earth E-691? Yes, this could be possible.

    In the past, Marvel never seemed to make the Infinity Gems more powerful than the PF. For example, Marvel would answer fan questions of who is more powerful: Jean Grey with the PF or Moondragon with the Mind Gem. It was always answered as Jean. This was also the answer from the vast majority of fans on many forums, noted more as the difference between the PF and Infinity Gem rather than it being Jean Vs Heather.

    But today........................not sure at all. Marvel has now so convoluted the PF and IS it is so hard for me answer.
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 09-10-2020 at 03:18 PM.

  7. #7
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    We have seen Phoenixes in many various alternate dimensions, but they seem to operate separately. As far as I can tell from the various interpretations of its lore over the years, it does seem to be a constant; wherever there are conscious, sentient beings, a Phoenix Force will be, being the composite of all psionic energy, across spacetime. The White Hot Room seems to imply a trans-dimensionality to the Phoenix Force, as White Phoenix of the Crown Jean was able to hold an entire universe\timeline\dimension in her hands and destroy it in favor of an alternative one. You can't have that if the Phoenix Force isn't multiversal.
    That thing with the WPOC was explained to state, she first of all, only affected one universe, the universe she came from. While the WHR is the nexus of realities... operating inside it doesn't make you a multiveral being. There other places that are a nexus of realities as well. Take the Quantum Realm. It's probably beyond what a nexus would be, as quantum reality does not deal in physical manifestations, as a nexus of realities would... scientifically speaking. Yet when the Avengers went into the Quantum Realm (Endgame), to also affect their own universe, it didn't make THEM multiversal beings either. The argument stated, just because WPOC was IN a place of multiversal properties, doesn't mean White Phoenix is multiversal herself. She didn't do anything multiversal level, only universal.

    Also I think the Phoenix Force is the psionic nexus of its respective universe, not across the multiverse, definitely not the omniverse. Because there are beings who actually created universes and realms of their own (something Phoenix has never shown the power to do), and thus they were the psionic nexus, and nexus of realities, within their creation, which excluded the Phoenix. The Phoenix isn't listed in any of Marvel's official material as "multiversal" only universal. In the Phoenix Handbook, it was stated that the Phoenix has the power to "manipulate" (important) atomic structures on a UNIVERSAL scale. I must note the Phoenix is known to "manipulate" and not "create" as it never has created realities or anything else. It manipulates what already exists, and recycles energy into new things (thus it "creates" in that sense, but not in a quintessent sense). It makes more sense for the Phoenix Force to be universal, not multiversal, as the "embodiment" of the life force, each universe would need its own Phoenix Force.

    NOW... all that said and done... I DO want to know IF the White Phoenix, or any other Phoenix, ever had a multiversal accomplishment or feat. Because, the writers would need to know that, while writing a new Phoenix story, and I was presented info on why the Phoenix is NOT multiversal, but I WANT to see the evidence of it actually BEING multiversal, if it exists.

  8. #8
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Hi GMickey,

    Hmmm, one tough question. I will attempt to provde an answer.

    Originally, I thought the PF was a Universal Force.

    But later, we had a Phoenix Force which megerd-with-as-opposed-to-replacing the Jean Grey of Earth-811. This Jean Grey became the mother to Rachel Summers.

    A little later, we see a Phoenix Force dormant in a volcano on Haven in the 31st Century on Earth-691. This PF merged with Giraud of Haven to become Phoenix IX

    So this would lead me to believe it is a Multiversal Entity. But, could it be that the PF of E-616 just traveled to both E-811 and future earth E-691? Yes, this could be possible.

    In the past, Marvel never seemed to make the Infinity Gems more powerful than the PF. For example, Marvel would answer fan questions of who is more powerful: Jean Grey with the PF or Moondragon with the Mind Gem. It was always answered as Jean. This was also the answer from the vast majority of fans on many forums, noted more as the difference between the PF and Infinity Gem rather than it being Jean Vs Heather.

    But today........................not sure at all. Marvel has now so convoluted the PF and IS it is so hard for me answer.
    Alright, time for some insane shit to explain on my end, hope I remember all of this correctly X'D

    Here's what I was told... the Phoenix Force, like all the other Abstracts, exists in each universe as the principles to govern said universes. It's not true across the multiverse as, some universes and multiverses, were created by almost omnipotent beings, which supplied those realms with their own power, which excludes the Abstract Entities. This means the Abstract Entities are indeed "universal" forces. Eternity, for example, is a "universal" entity, but Multi-Eternity is a "multiversal" entity. There isn't a "Multi-Phoenix" entity, and according to a scan shown to me from the official Phoenix Handbook, it stated the Phoenix has the power to manipulate atomic structures, on a "universal" level.

    This would mean tho, different versions of the Phoenix exists in other universes, no different from Steve Rogers existing in multiple universes, but isn't considered a "multiversal" entity. Also as mentioned to me, the New Sun was capable of travelling into multiple universes, and affecting them as he did, yet he's not considered a "multiversal" entity... despite some claiming him to have multiversal feats...

    In the cases of Phoenix IX, Rachel Summers, Feron, and other avatars, they were taken by the Phoenix of their respective reality. Also, the Phoenix from one reality could traverse into another, to take a host, but it wouldn't necessarily mean the Phoenix "multiversal". Let me know if there's more I should know, though!

    As for the Mind Gem thing... Like I said, I don't know for certain, only going by what others provide me with, such as scans, panels and shit... but the Mind Gem wouldn't compare to the Phoenix directly, as its more complex than an exact comparison. I've asked this question as well. The Mind Gem is said to have seniority, as it is one of the remnants of the first cosmos to exist, thus it existed before even the Phoenix itself, and is an older, more primordial source of psionic energy. The Mind Gem itself is a relic of power, from a time before the primordial. Therefore, its not the psionic nexus or anything like that, as it is a dormant object. The level of effect that the Infinity Gems produce, varies depending on who is wielding them. Attaining the full power of the Infinity Gems is most difficult, as it requires a powerful entity to do so. Example being Thanos, with the Infinity Gauntlet, could only affect his particular universe, whereas Magus/Adam Warlock, with an INCOMPLETE Infinity Gauntlet, merged two universes into one... a powerful multiversal feat (as said by some). Now I was shown scans of which Thanos stated he could feel the power of many universes, or now has the power to control all universes... something like that... smells like them damn retcons are at it again! LOL

    In conclusion with the Infinity Gems, I WAS TOLD that at their full power, they are second to TOAA, even above the LT (as a scan was shown of LT not intervening with the IG, due to its power outranking[?] him) as they created the very first iteration of the cosmos/multiverse to begin with. However, finding an entity that can power those gems to that level of omnipotence is nigh impossible, thus... for the most part, the Infinity Gems are seemingly, only universal level in power.

    IS any of that shit correct, don't know... um, just sharing what was told to me, if there are any rebuttals, DEFINITELY want to hear them. I want the writers to have everything they need to write a solid, as well as epic story, that everyone can participate and contribute to

    And whatever ideas you come up with, pls jot them down

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    We do have evidence that the PF can influence multiversal change.



    The Phoenix projecting an object (in this case a tower) across all dimensions simultaneously.

    A more defensive example but Rachel went into the White Hot Room with Psylocke to escape Wanda's spell which affected multiple realities.
    Last edited by ChronoRogue; 09-10-2020 at 04:17 PM.

  10. #10

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    You seem to be mixing MCU canon with Marvel Comics canon. They have to be considered separately, even if the movies are shaping the modern comics.

    The Phoenix Force, the White Hot Room, and the M'Kraan Crystal all definitely transcend a single universe, which by definition makes them multidimensional if not omnidimensional. A nexus of All realities.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  11. #11
    Incredible Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    I was one of the persons that always called the White Phoenix Jean "Multiversal" because of this feat

    But then i find this explanation


    WHITE PHOENIX EXPLAINED

    I want to know Where is the whole talk about White Phoenix being multiversal coming from? She certainly did not have any multiversal feat or even close during X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow and i do not think White Phoenix has actually appeared anywhere else to significantly perform a feat.

    Healing a universe really doesnt translate to a multiversal power level.

    Holding universe in her hands, few small facts:

    1. She never actually held 616 universe but rather a baby universe on her hand, reality 15104.

    2. Reality 15104 was a baby universe , only 150 years old as opposed to 616 which have been said to be billion of years old.

    3. What Phoenix actually did in the scan was prevent the reality from collapsing, good feat indeed, then time travelled in the past and made Cyclops do something that prevented the creating of that universe altogether, i..e Made Cyclops re-open Xavier institute.

  12. #12
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    We do have evidence that the PF can influence multiversal change.

    The Phoenix projecting an object (in this case a tower) across all dimensions simultaneously.

    A more defensive example but Rachel went into the White Hot Room with Psylocke to escape Wanda's spell which affected multiple realities.
    So I mentioned Feron's creation of those towers to the writers... issue was, this was ONLY possible during an alignment. And alignment that happened on its own, and not by the Phoenix's own power. They showed me scans of the Phoenix having to project through aligned portals, meaning this wouldn't be possible without the alignment.

    Entering a space of multi-dimensional properties does not qualify an entity being multi-dimensional themselves, as I'm told. By the logic of Phoenix being multiversal by virtue of being able to enter a multi-dimensional space, means the Avengers can be considered multiversal, as they created quantum mechanical tools, to enter the quantum realm... a place that's beyond even being a nexus of realities, and could have entered all sorts of alternative universes. The quantum realm is where realities are spawned.

    While the tower is the best and closest example of the Phoenix having a multiversal feat, it wasn't something done on by its own power, in the end. What multiversal affect had the Phoenix had, by solely its own power, that's the question...

  13. #13
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    You seem to be mixing MCU canon with Marvel Comics canon. They have to be considered separately, even if the movies are shaping the modern comics.

    The Phoenix Force, the White Hot Room, and the M'Kraan Crystal all definitely transcend a single universe, which by definition makes them multidimensional if not omnidimensional. A nexus of All realities.
    Um... when did I ever reference film? ALL of the references presented to me that I've shared, and even in the link I provided are comic canon, not film.

    While the White Hot Room and M'Kraan Crystal are multiversal, the Phoenix has never proven to be multiversal. What feats validates the Phoenix being multiversal? That's what I'm asking. EVEN in the Phoenix Handbook, as shown to me, it states the Phoenix has total control over the atomic structure on a "UNIVERSAL" scale. The Phoenix exists in multiple universes, in the same way Steve Rogers exists in multiple universes. Steve isn't considered multiversal just because versions of him exist in other realities. Same goes for Phoenix. The Abstract Entities all exist as separate versions of themselves per universe, as... as explained and shown to me, the Abstract Entities serve as principles of many given universes (not all, as a multiverse created by the Beyonders, would be without the Phoenix, or any other abstract entity).

    Now... I WANT to know what feats of the Phoenix are multiversal, and report it back. They need to know these things, before rewriting the Phoenix's mythos and story...

  14. #14
    Fantastic Member GMikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    I was one of the persons that always called the White Phoenix Jean "Multiversal" because of this feat

    But then i find this explanation

    WHITE PHOENIX EXPLAINED

    I want to know Where is the whole talk about White Phoenix being multiversal coming from? She certainly did not have any multiversal feat or even close during X-men: Here Comes Tomorrow and i do not think White Phoenix has actually appeared anywhere else to significantly perform a feat.

    Healing a universe really doesnt translate to a multiversal power level.

    Holding universe in her hands, few small facts:

    1. She never actually held 616 universe but rather a baby universe on her hand, reality 15104.

    2. Reality 15104 was a baby universe , only 150 years old as opposed to 616 which have been said to be billion of years old.

    3. What Phoenix actually did in the scan was prevent the reality from collapsing, good feat indeed, then time travelled in the past and made Cyclops do something that prevented the creating of that universe altogether, i..e Made Cyclops re-open Xavier institute.
    ALL of that is exactly what happened to me. I thought that the Phoenix was a multiversal being, until these new animators presented info about the Phoenix being universal.

    That explanation you provided checks out, as there's info shared with me by the animators that would back that explanation. My issue is... if they are going to rewrite the Phoenix's mythos, powers and abilities and such, you've gotta really know the Phoenix's source material, to best decide what should be changed and what shouldn't.

    And I'm one that's not trying at all to take away from the Phoenix, but learn the truth, so I, and anyone else may propose some helpful ideas

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMikey View Post
    So my goal here is to assist these fan writers in this collaborative Marvel anime short series, take the best stuff from canon to be used in restructuring what the Phoenix is, and its relationship with Jean Grey
    Well I can explain it but it's not easy or succinct.

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