Phoenix force: Universal or multiversal?

[Denkota]

Wow! That's some effort being put into a what is ultimately a fan made project or do you actually have Marvel's authorization for this? If no then ultimately it won't matter one bit to official canon so putting so much effort into researching this seems pointless. If yes then you should probably coordinate your efforts with Marvel's think tank and see how open they are about radically changing the Phoenix scenario to such an extent and whether they will incorporate it or ignore it.

[ChronoRogue]

So I mentioned Feron's creation of those towers to the writers... issue was, this was ONLY possible during an alignment. And alignment that happened on its own, and not by the Phoenix's own power. They showed me scans of the Phoenix having to project through aligned portals, meaning this wouldn't be possible without the alignment.

Entering a space of multi-dimensional properties does not qualify an entity being multi-dimensional themselves, as I'm told. By the logic of Phoenix being multiversal by virtue of being able to enter a multi-dimensional space, means the Avengers can be considered multiversal, as they created quantum mechanical tools, to enter the quantum realm... a place that's beyond even being a nexus of realities, and could have entered all sorts of alternative universes. The quantum realm is where realities are spawned.

While the tower is the best and closest example of the Phoenix having a multiversal feat, it wasn't something done on by its own power, in the end. What multiversal affect had the Phoenix had, by solely its own power, that's the question...

The alignment had more to do with Feron communicating with the Phoenix than the Phoenix's own power. Why would it need an alignment to project a tower across dimensions when it can already cross dimensions itself? It didn't serve as a power boost, it allowed communion with the group to access the PF powers.

You are misunderstanding. It's not that the White Hot Room is merely multi-dimensional, it's that it served as a barrier against a multi-dimensional spell. Simply crossing into another dimension as you mention is nothing noteworthy, it's that it blocked the spell itself. We know that No More Mutants affected multi-realities, it reduced mutants numbers across the multi-verse, so that the White Hot Room was able to rebuff that is why it's an impressive feat.

Later on as someone else mentioned you get the culmination of that mirrored, with Wanda (without the Life Force) and Hope using PF to undo Wanda's multiversal spell. I'm guessing most of that was the PF itself, since while Wanda had showed she was able to undo the spell on a small scale (Rictor) she couldn't project it across dimensions like what the Life Force allowed.

Again, given what the Phoenix Force had done with the tower she was probably acting like a omniversal projector again; projecting Wanda's spell across the omniverse.

[Frobisher]

Wow! That's some effort being put into a what is ultimately a fan made project or do you actually have Marvel's authorization for this? If no then ultimately it won't matter one bit to official canon so putting so much effort into researching this seems pointless. If yes then you should probably coordinate your efforts with Marvel's think tank and see how open they are about radically changing the Phoenix scenario to such an extent and whether they will incorporate it or ignore it.

Only Disney's lawyers are truly multiversal.

[GMikey]

Wow! That's some effort being put into a what is ultimately a fan made project or do you actually have Marvel's authorization for this? If no then ultimately it won't matter one bit to official canon so putting so much effort into researching this seems pointless. If yes then you should probably coordinate your efforts with Marvel's think tank and see how open they are about radically changing the Phoenix scenario to such an extent and whether they will incorporate it or ignore it.

Well... it's not pointless to me. This is an awesome thing that has brought so many fans together, people are sharing ideas, exchanging talents, and so on. I honestly was hoping to share that in this forum, but I'll be honest, I'm not certain that was a good idea lol

The think tank(s) are about discussing new ideas, perspectives, and innovations. However, some topics have been divisive, on the count of different perspectives clashing. There are "admins" who act as mediators, and are there to make final decisions. But in the end, we all want a great, epic saga(s), that does justice to characters that have been handled poorly, as well as do justice to the perspectives of the Marvel Fandom.

My thing is, I want it to be awesome, but also in alignment with canon. And to me, it should all be about building on what exists in canon, and only rewrite the contradictions and loopholes. The power of fans is always underestimated, and for reasons I still don't get. Fans have had tremendous affect on canon, so... what we do shouldn't be underestimated. I know where this project is going, and... it is as exciting as it is terrifying LOL but that's why I'm trying to reach out to as many fans as possible. Unfortunately... this may not be the place for said discussions :/

[GMikey]

The alignment had more to do with Feron communicating with the Phoenix than the Phoenix's own power. Why would it need an alignment to project a tower across dimensions when it can already cross dimensions itself? It didn't serve as a power boost, it allowed communion with the group to access the PF powers.

You are misunderstanding. It's not that the White Hot Room is merely multi-dimensional, it's that it served as a barrier against a multi-dimensional spell. Simply crossing into another dimension as you mention is nothing noteworthy, it's that it blocked the spell itself. We know that No More Mutants affected multi-realities, it reduced mutants numbers across the multi-verse, so that the White Hot Room was able to rebuff that is why it's an impressive feat.

Later on as someone else mentioned you get the culmination of that mirrored, with Wanda (without the Life Force) and Hope using PF to undo Wanda's multiversal spell. I'm guessing most of that was the PF itself, since while Wanda had showed she was able to undo the spell on a small scale (Rictor) she couldn't project it across dimensions like what the Life Force allowed.

Again, given what the Phoenix Force had done with the tower she was probably acting like a omniversal projector again; projecting Wanda's spell across the omniverse.

I'm... not sure about that with Feron... the panels that were shared and read- I don't remember clearly, maybe I need to go find out what comic that is and read it myself. But the thing with Feron was discussed multiple times and, it was stated by the "debunkers" as I call them lol, that an alignment of portals or something happened that allowed Phoenix Feron to project those towers. I'll ask again, and try looking it up myself

I did state in one of my previous posts that, I will (and have) shared the No More Mutants thing, and see what they have to say. Its the only argument I've been presented that I believe, shows the Phoenix having a multiversal feat

[GMikey]

Only Disney's lawyers are truly multiversal.

LOL what do their lawyers have to do with anything? Also... they're gonna have no concern for this, no reason to. Not when so many OTHER fan projects out there exist.

Like I said, I feel like I'm conversing with the wrong group. I've only tried being cordial, deliberately stated "I'm playing devil's advocate here, let's talk" and... I just feel like, what I am discussing, could be too controversial of a topic for here. Maybe, I shouldn't challenge the Phoenix in this forum, or discuss anything in regards this project, and fan involvement with it. I just feel like I'm being flamed for presenting a different perspective, and "standing my ground" (which isn't rly the case) to produce a good argument FOR the Phoenix -_-

I do want to say thanks to those who DID respond with understanding, and contributed what they could. I did get an answer at least, and I hope the admins will get to review it today.

At any rate, the next time I post, I'm gonna be very specific on, who I want to reply -_-

[PwrdOn]

You're going about this all wrong, there's no point in trying to nail down all the finer points of canon for a fanfic, just start writing and see where the story takes you. Even if this thing does end up getting published somewhere down the line, it's not like slavish adherence to continuity has ever really been high up on Marvel's list of priorities when it comes to evaluating pitches. Frankly, if you're going to try and write a Phoenix story without Jean Grey, then it's pretty much destined to be terrible regardless of whether it's multiversal, omniversal, or whatever other versal you want, the concept is intrinsically tied to her story and all of the attempts to transplant it onto another character have failed miserably.

[GMikey]

You're going about this all wrong, there's no point in trying to nail down all the finer points of canon for a fanfic, just start writing and see where the story takes you. Even if this thing does end up getting published somewhere down the line, it's not like slavish adherence to continuity has ever really been high up on Marvel's list of priorities when it comes to evaluating pitches. Frankly, if you're going to try and write a Phoenix story without Jean Grey, then it's pretty much destined to be terrible regardless of whether it's multiversal, omniversal, or whatever other versal you want, the concept is intrinsically tied to her story and all of the attempts to transplant it onto another character have failed miserably.

LOL I never said Jean Grey is NOT Phoenix. She IS Phoenix period, however the story does eventually shift to focus on a new "Cosmic X-Man". That does not take the Phoenix Force from Jean Grey. As a matter of fact, the chief writer stated, Jean Grey as Phoenix would work better for her, because she would rather apply this new Cosmic Entity to a new X-Man, so that exploration of new cosmic grounds, cosmic powers and feats, can be done through a new face, with this new(ish) Cosmic Entity. She'd rather keep Jean as Phoenix and as part of the X-Men, while the new Cosmic X-Man, embark on these wild, dark cosmic adventures.

Um... well, this is more than a fanfic. I know exactly where this is going, and it's why I'm trying very hard to collect what I can, soooo... as the Phoenix's mythos is rewritten (for the purpose of being better structured), it would still mirror or complement canon well. That's all I'm trying to do.

I'll be honest, the Phoenix failed to "transplant" to other characters, because of poor writing, and the writers inhibition to explore the Phoenix in full, with another character. That said, I'm very confident about this new Phoenix narrative. A few select groups got to read the plot, and EVERYONE loves this idea and new direction. From what I see, Grey fans will get what they want, while others will also get an amazing gift of their own

[Wolverine12]

I don’t hate you for your stance or the writers stance or whatever it is but again the question is pointless if the “creators” are picking and choosing what “counts.” It sounds like they really don’t want the Phoenix force to be multiversal despite several instances showing it is and they decided the infinity stones are multiversal despite several instances showing they aren’t. At this point just move forward because it clearly doesn’t matter what evidence is shown. I think you’re banging your head against a wall with this, or they are. I’d invite them to come join the discussion so maybe they could better explain their stance and what they are trying to do. I will add that this is not the place to promote their project though, that would be in the creator showcase forum.

[GMikey]

I don’t hate you for your stance or the writers stance or whatever it is but again the question is pointless if the “creators” are picking and choosing what “counts.” It sounds like they really don’t want the Phoenix force to be multiversal despite several instances showing it is and they decided the infinity stones are multiversal despite several instances showing they aren’t. At this point just move forward because it clearly doesn’t matter what evidence is shown. I think you’re banging your head against a wall with this, or they are. I’d invite them to come join the discussion so maybe they could better explain their stance and what they are trying to do. I will add that this is not the place to promote their project though, that would be in the creator showcase forum.

Well... keep in mind, the writers aren't the only players. Its a whole think tank, created over a year ago, with thousands of Marvel fans, with thousands of opinions and headcanons to observe.

There's many opinions on the Phoenix Force, and for each person to bring up a host of arguments of what the Phoenix is capable of, there are those who "debunk" said arguments. So... it makes it all difficult to sort out. One of the hardest to accomplish was the question of which supersedes the other, the Quantum Field or the White Hot Room. I asked many forums, including this one... no one knew the answer. Those who did understand quantum mechanics decided for us that the Quantum Field is superior to the White Hot Room (long, long story). But that was a flaming, fuming battle between fans.

I say all that to say... the new writers aren't just "choosing" what counts, its the fans themselves. There does seem to be a lot more in favor of the Infinity Gems as multiversal, but... its not entirely a decision of the writers and admins.

I will definitely visit the creator's forum (as I never knew one existed here), but... I am asking questions about the Marvel canon as well, projects aside.

[MythicalChicken]

I think the Phoenix - Save maybe for rachel as that made the most sense for her character imo - could use a break but if one more non-mutant office stripmines X-men material for leverage, I’ll scream.

[GMikey]

I think the Phoenix - Save maybe for rachel as that made the most sense for her character imo - could use a break but if one more non-mutant office stripmines X-men material for leverage, I’ll scream.

You look like a good person to talk to

So... the new writers, their decision for Rachel is to actually introduce her into a future arc, without the Phoenix at all. The chief writer states she wants to establish Rachel as her own strong character, and master psionic. Way later, after an arc dealing with a massive decimation, lots of convoluted stuff happens, then in the special arc Rachel would become Phoenix, and she would need it as they both (Rachel and Phoenix) investigate the threatening mystery of "The Raven".

Jean Grey would become Phoenix before Rachel does, but... after the Phoenix Trilogy, and the events leaving the X-Men short handed in members, Jean Grey goes back to being herself (for the most part) takes up leadership, and I think this is when she opens "The Jean Grey School of Higher Learning", in dedication to the late Professor Xavier. Jean Grey would continue just being herself, with her own character development as well.

The writers want the focus for both Jean Grey and Rachel Summers to be their own characters and powers, as they've had the Phoenix be attached to them for so long in main media, and there's a good amount of fans that want to see them as their own characters. They want to show a different side of them. This doesn't mean that they would be without the Phoenix entirely; we would also get to see a side of the Phoenix, without a constant host as well, explore cosmic entities from a different angle.

There is the introduction of a new "Cosmic X-Man" (not with the Phoenix Force however) and this new cosmic identity and mantle becomes this X-Man's new story and focus.

[Gripstir]

All I can say is I know full power gambit in his alternate new sub reality was able to defeat the Phoenix of their dimension.

There is also an alternate force called the Bete Noir that possesses Bishop during the Gambit and Bishop miniseries. Idk ifthat helps at all answer the question but it’s knowledge

[GMikey]

All I can say is I know full power gambit in his alternate new sub reality was able to defeat the Phoenix of their dimension.

There is also an alternate force called the Bete Noir that possesses Bishop during the Gambit and Bishop miniseries. Idk ifthat helps at all answer the question but it’s knowledge

Any knowledge is knowledge to me

I am aware of New Sun (Gambit) and that not only he defeated Phoenix of his reality, but he was capable of traveling to other universes and affecting them.

Bete Noir I believe was meant to be the opposite of the Phoenix Force (like Goblin Force was), however, the new writers aren't too keen on incorporating Bete Noir or Goblin Force. I can understand why. Neither were written as well as they could have been. I'm for giving those second chances ^_^

As for New Sun, he's been used a lot in debates of what would or should count as multiversal as a whole, or multiversal in feats. So... good mention

[Gripstir]

Any knowledge is knowledge to me

I am aware of New Sun (Gambit) and that not only he defeated Phoenix of his reality, but he was capable of traveling to other universes and affecting them.

Bete Noir I believe was meant to be the opposite of the Phoenix Force (like Goblin Force was), however, the new writers aren't too keen on incorporating Bete Noir or Goblin Force. I can understand why. Neither were written as well as they could have been. I'm for giving those second chances ^_^

As for New Sun, he's been used a lot in debates of what would or should count as multiversal as a whole, or multiversal in feats. So... good mention

I actually did love the idea of Gambit as omega level and went about researching the abilities of kinetic energy and part of me feels based on my research Gambit/New Sun could be multiversal based on the things he can control and do. He technically did need Bill for portal jumping but if Gambits powers were ever fully explored he might be able to do some multiverse stuff. He can control vibrations, magnetic fields, radiant energy (gamma rays, radio waves etcetc) and potentially able to control strings if string theory is confirmed. I'm just saying this in case multiversal needs some definition updating if he's used as a barometer