Phoenix force: Universal or multiversal?

[Gripstir]

Well... it's not pointless to me. This is an awesome thing that has brought so many fans together, people are sharing ideas, exchanging talents, and so on. I honestly was hoping to share that in this forum, but I'll be honest, I'm not certain that was a good idea lol

The think tank(s) are about discussing new ideas, perspectives, and innovations. However, some topics have been divisive, on the count of different perspectives clashing. There are "admins" who act as mediators, and are there to make final decisions. But in the end, we all want a great, epic saga(s), that does justice to characters that have been handled poorly, as well as do justice to the perspectives of the Marvel Fandom.

My thing is, I want it to be awesome, but also in alignment with canon. And to me, it should all be about building on what exists in canon, and only rewrite the contradictions and loopholes. The power of fans is always underestimated, and for reasons I still don't get. Fans have had tremendous affect on canon, so... what we do shouldn't be underestimated. I know where this project is going, and... it is as exciting as it is terrifying LOL but that's why I'm trying to reach out to as many fans as possible. Unfortunately... this may not be the place for said discussions :/

I think one piece of data gathering you're kinda missing out by places like this is learning what will fans minds accept as canon. You can do all the research and potentially get the right answer but the question is will general fans accept it. So I do say be wary of catering to fans I do think theses convos, even if you don't get the objective answer you want, does provide a insight into how people think. And in addition learning how lore hits people's brains. Because misunderstanding lore is just as common as people fully understanding it

[GMikey]

I actually did love the idea of Gambit as omega level and went about researching the abilities of kinetic energy and part of me feels based on my research Gambit/New Sun could be multiversal based on the things he can control and do. He technically did need Bill for portal jumping but if Gambits powers were ever fully explored he might be able to do some multiverse stuff. He can control vibrations, magnetic fields, radiant energy (gamma rays, radio waves etcetc) and potentially able to control strings if string theory is confirmed. I'm just saying this in case multiversal needs some definition updating if he's used as a barometer

I think one piece of data gathering you're kinda missing out by places like this is learning what will fans minds accept as canon. You can do all the research and potentially get the right answer but the question is will general fans accept it. So I do say be wary of catering to fans I do think theses convos, even if you don't get the objective answer you want, does provide a insight into how people think. And in addition learning how lore hits people's brains. Because misunderstanding lore is just as common as people fully understanding it

I... need to share something with you in a PM, so... sometime this week, look out for me

[PwrdOn]

I do think that you’re way overemphasizing adherence to relatively minor points of canon, ultimately there’s enough self contradiction in the books that you could find plenty of evidence either way, and it comes down to picking what stories you liked and want to follow. And you definitely don’t want to fall into that fanfic trap of primarily focusing on fixing or resetting parts of canon you don’t think should be there, that’s a big reason why so many of them are just flat out unreadable, it’s blatantly obvious when the writer is trying to “fix” the continuity rather than just making a good story. Canon can be a tool to add depth to characters and flesh out their backstory, but it should never be something that constrains you from telling the story you want to tell. Adhering slavishly to continuity doesn’t make a fanfic any less a fanfic nor does it imply anything about its quality. In fact I would probably wager that stories that do stick closer to canon are probably worse on balance, because the type of mind that fixates on getting the minor details lined up isn’t really the type that can really make something creative and original.

[GMikey]

I do think that you’re way overemphasizing adherence to relatively minor points of canon, ultimately there’s enough self contradiction in the books that you could find plenty of evidence either way, and it comes down to picking what stories you liked and want to follow. And you definitely don’t want to fall into that fanfic trap of primarily focusing on fixing or resetting parts of canon you don’t think should be there, that’s a big reason why so many of them are just flat out unreadable, it’s blatantly obvious when the writer is trying to “fix” the continuity rather than just making a good story. Canon can be a tool to add depth to characters and flesh out their backstory, but it should never be something that constrains you from telling the story you want to tell. Adhering slavishly to continuity doesn’t make a fanfic any less a fanfic nor does it imply anything about its quality. In fact I would probably wager that stories that do stick closer to canon are probably worse on balance, because the type of mind that fixates on getting the minor details lined up isn’t really the type that can really make something creative and original.

The only problem is... we're dealing with thousands of fans. Literally, its over 6k in our private board now. The exact number of actual "creators" in the primary think tank, is about 30 or so. We're dealing with ALL those different POVs, headcanons, and such. Its worked best to agree on an absolute answer, than the usual "it's writer's interpretation". This way... its easier to have a solid agreement on something, and it dispels confusion and any mass of others wanting to contradict each other.

I agree. I've witnessed fanfics fall apart due to the writer... being overly concerned with canon, and fail to keep on track with their story. But this is kinda different, what its developing into, and what impact its going to have on the global fandom in general. That's what makes it kind of important.

I mean... an idea IS being proposed of how to handle the whole, multiverse/universe thing. But... for what this project is, and the many, many fans involved... I just want something that makes everyone feel welcomed, and their ideas or beliefs are respected. Its a platform for fans to put their ideas into creative motion, so... that's why, I say what I say

[Phoenixx9]

The only problem is... we're dealing with thousands of fans. Literally, its over 6k in our private board now. The exact number of actual "creators" in the primary think tank, is about 30 or so. We're dealing with ALL those different POVs, headcanons, and such. Its worked best to agree on an absolute answer, than the usual "it's writer's interpretation". This way... its easier to have a solid agreement on something, and it dispels confusion and any mass of others wanting to contradict each other.

I agree. I've witnessed fanfics fall apart due to the writer... being overly concerned with canon, and fail to keep on track with their story. But this is kinda different, what its developing into, and what impact its going to have on the global fandom in general. That's what makes it kind of important.

I mean... an idea IS being proposed of how to handle the whole, multiverse/universe thing. But... for what this project is, and the many, many fans involved... I just want something that makes everyone feel welcomed, and their ideas or beliefs are respected. Its a platform for fans to put their ideas into creative motion, so... that's why, I say what I say

I get it.

[GMikey]

I get it.

I know you get me

I might as well ask here since my thread on this topic was closed, is the Phoenix omnificent/creative as a force?

In discussion, some have brought about debate on whether or not it's a creative force, or one with nigh-omni-manipulation. In some BASIC research (cuz I initially thought the Phoenix did "create" stuff) I've found the Phoenix possesses the power to "freely manipulate all existing things" (as stated in the wiki) and even in the handbook, I only read about atomic and sub-atomic manipulation. Not like... creation of galaxies, creation of realities, creation of god-like beings, stuff like that...

[Phoenixx9]

I know you get me

I might as well ask here since my thread on this topic was closed, is the Phoenix omnificent/creative as a force?

In discussion, some have brought about debate on whether or not it's a creative force, or one with nigh-omni-manipulation. In some BASIC research (cuz I initially thought the Phoenix did "create" stuff) I've found the Phoenix possesses the power to "freely manipulate all existing things" (as stated in the wiki) and even in the handbook, I only read about atomic and sub-atomic manipulation. Not like... creation of galaxies, creation of realities, creation of god-like beings, stuff like that...

To answer your question, I think this is another one of those "Phoenix Inconsistancies" also coupled with poorly shown and explained powers, even right from the beginning. Below are some examples that readily come to mind.

In Jean's first real appearance as Phoenix when she fights (and beats!) Firelord, these inconsistancies first show. Let me explain. Jean physically transforms into Phoenix, her hair being really wild and long, with white pupils, reddish hue to her face and an energy signature all around her (pinkish color). Except for the occasional white pupils, none of these things have been seen since.

In that issue, Phoenix talks about how her powers are "backed by the power of the Sun itself" while blasting Firelord. This was never mentioned again. Jean's body seemed to surge with energy and she looked physically powerful, as she should, since the PF does increase even physical abilities. Jean is able to shrug off physical and energy blasts from Firelord---not by blocking them or avoiding them---as she gets hit by them and takes the brunt, but the PF has enhanced her durability. Thus, years later, Faux-neto (Xorneto) should not have been able to kill her by that lame "electromagnetic pulse giving stroke".

In that issue, Jean powers up the Interstellar Stargate left behind. However, she does not just transport the team herself. She had the energy, but seemed to need the technology. So this would lead one to believe that Phoenix is not Omnificient, at least not in a human host. Do not forget, the pure PF is much more powerful and can do many more things than a host with the PF.

In the last X-Men movie "Dark Phoenix", Vuk says to Jean that she "could turn dust into water and water into life" on barren planets. If she was truly omnificent, she could have just created life.

So these examples would lead me to believe, no, the PF, at least when bonded to a human host, is not omnificent.

[GMikey]

I get it.

I think one piece of data gathering you're kinda missing out by places like this is learning what will fans minds accept as canon. You can do all the research and potentially get the right answer but the question is will general fans accept it. So I do say be wary of catering to fans I do think theses convos, even if you don't get the objective answer you want, does provide a insight into how people think. And in addition learning how lore hits people's brains. Because misunderstanding lore is just as common as people fully understanding it

I think the Phoenix - Save maybe for rachel as that made the most sense for her character imo - could use a break but if one more non-mutant office stripmines X-men material for leverage, I’ll scream.

What is the difference between the White Phoenix of the Crown and from all the other Phoenix? Why is it that when the Phoenix host dies they are sent to heal in the WHR, outside of their local universe? What if the White Phoenix of the Crown is the Multi-Phoenix?

As a Jean Grey fan that would like to see the unique relationship of the Phoenix and Jean reestablished in a respectful way to what was originally intended, I think this would help explain why the Phoenix favors Jean above all other host.

It's both. It's a multi-verse cosmic force (LIFE) that works on a universal level (host bodies) to repair or destroy.

The phoenix consciousness that talks is Multiversal or at least has awareness on a multiversal level and the avatars are universal

Beyond TOAA, Living Tribunal, Eternity, Infinity, Death and Oblivion you are going to find a few examples of clear evidence of Multiversal "beings", most of the times authors are going to have conflict arguments about the matter and fans will use their own headcanon to fill the holes based on their own preferences.

I know that my post is basically a "no answer" but i dont think that you can come to a solid conclusion.

I was one of the persons that always called the White Phoenix Jean "Multiversal" because of this feat

I want to shout out to you guys as having the best, unbiased answers. Whether right or wrong, you all gave me the most valuable comments for me to take to these writers/animators.

While the first two shorts are NEAR complete, it hasn't been announced on a broad platform, yet. However, we are still dealing with various fans, those in our primary think tank, and those in micro think tanks on other platforms. I feel your info is most valuable, and... the chief writer actually proposed the most interesting construction of the Phoenix, that I believe YOU ALL would highly value, and appreciate. What she proposed early today, was in fact based on several comments made by you guys.

I'd like to invite you to a different thread to discuss more about... developing the Phoenix, and what the Phoenix and Jean Grey's new narrative would be. Honestly, this is the best, journey of self, self-reflective, and gives TRUE credence as to why the Phoenix chose Jean. I will say, Jean Grey does share the spotlight at a certain point with a new "Cosmic X-Man" for the fans who wanted a different Phoenix host. The chief stated she didn't really see value in changing Phoenix's host, and instead, rather introduce a brand new entity, to counter pair with the Phoenix's story. And that narrative would serve as a new dimension, to which Jean/Phoenix and the new Cosmic X-Man are heroes in their own right (well Jean is a hero, the other Cosmic X-Man is an antihero), but are villains in each others eyes, thus their rivalry.

This is where I'll share the chief's new constructed plot of the Phoenix, I definitely want you guys to judge the idea, and even correct/contribute your thoughts. Every contributor WILL be highlighted in the series: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...non-think-tank

Phoenixx9 and Gripstir have been very instrumental, thank you guys, so... definitely want others interested to "join the conversation"

[cam18]

Phoenix should easily be Multiversial at least......