Bendis leaving the Superman and Action Comics in December

[Robanker]

Yeah! Nope. Kakashi takes this round with one hand tied behind his back. Superman would look like a dork in every iteration trunks or no trunks. There is no competition. Superman can't beat lois at being badass. Kakashi is a billion miles away, mate.Especially, in the modern sense.

Kakashi was my favorite character back when I enjoyed Naruto and I'm sorry, but no. I know you have a thing for Superman as a shounen protagonist, but come on, dude.

[Vakanai]

None of these was used to build a mythos around it.Maybe they even can't . They were just suits that had no meaning that isn't contrived . This is what batman's costume purpose and meaning is.

"Bats frighten me. It's time my enemies shared my dread"
"Do you have lightweight fabric?" insinuating the ninja theme.
"Everything about you tells a tale. Your costume. your tactics. your attitude. They all scream outrage. Despair. Vengeance"
"theatricality and deception are foremost weapons against the uninitiated" again the ninja theme.
Compare that to the grandiose nonsense (s= hope) and trivialising one(mom made suit). You can see how the character is lacking, the dramatic flair.

And what mythos does the red underwear tell?

[Vakanai]

All i am saying those(rebirth reborn) don't look good enough to build mythos around them.

Really? They're updates on the original costume, which helped make not just a mythos but the genre. That doesn't change just because it doesn't have the trunks and the tenuous 1930s circus strongman connection that came with it.

Besides, Superman is the mythos.

[Vakanai]

Yeah! Nope. Kakashi takes this round with one hand tied behind his back. Superman would look like a dork in every iteration trunks or no trunks. There is no competition. Superman can't beat lois at being badass. Kakashi is a billion miles away, mate.Especially, in the modern sense.

Disagree. I didn't watch Naruto, but judging by the pic, Kakashi looks generic.

[Ra-El]

Sure, but clark doesn't look that good. Like at all. Tell you what, make him this.

Make superman into kakashi then we have a deal. No meaning required. Badassery will complete everything. The real white wolf with crimson eyes. Krypto would love to have this guy as his partner. Moreover, anything that has meaning and looks badass>>>>tights with no meaning.

I was watching the DC Fandome panel, with Levitz, Morrison, Waid, Nicola Scott and others. And Nicola ans Levitz were talking about what makes Batman so easy to adapt and they talked about his silhouette, how don't matter what they change on his suit, everyone can recognize Batman just by the silhouette. I've been thinking and they are in certain degree, right.

So about Kakashi, if someone put just his shadow, he would look like any other shinobi from Naruto. He doens't have anything that stands more than Superman, honestly, he looks like a teenager trying too hard to look cool. Batman, on the other hand, that is a character that also can be taken as someone trying too hard to look badass, but in his case it works.

Anyway, if I had to have any anime a inspiring a take on Superman, I would aim at Fullmetal Alchemist, I mean, give Superman Ed's trench coat, and we start talking.

[Ascended]

How did we go from talking about Bendis leaving to costumes?

And hard pass on the anime stuff. No offense to the anime fans here, but.....gods no. That image from....what is it? Naruto? Generic as hell ninja stuff and typical "high school idea of cool." Again, no offense intended at all here, but there's nothing unique about that look. Spiky hair? Semi-utilitarian, slightly loose fitting "ninja" clothes? Who in manga *doesnt* look just like this? Dude looks like I could defeat him just by playing some Smashing Pumpkins and asking him a existential question.

Does Clark's suit need a tweak? Yes, DC never should have abandoned the Reborn suit, it was a *big* step in the right direction and a damn near perfect update. But Superman is not a manga character, trying to make him one is not going to work and is a fool's errand.

But you want to talk about the mythos behind the costume? Thematically speaking, Clark is the last prince of a dead planet wearing the crest of his family's nobility. His suit is an artifact from a lost world and a visual representation of his kingdom's sacrificial trade in sending their last son to us. He dresses like a foreign king to serve mankind. Sure, the design could use a little TLC and updating, but as far as thematic mythology goes it beats the piss out of most costumes.

[Blue22]

As a big anime fan who thinks Kakashi is one of the most badass characters to ever exist...I'm gonna have to cosign with everyone else. He and Clark are so fundamentally different, there's like zero point in comparing them and even less of a point in making one more like the other. They're both awesome for different reasons. And the same goes for their appearances. (Keeping in mind that Kakashi's wardrobe is literally just the generic Hidden Leaf uniform. In his case, his appearance isn't what makes him badass. His actions are)

Does Clark's design need a tweak? Eh. I'm fine with it the way it is but I wouldn't complain if he did update it. But making him Kakashi, or most other anime characters, is just WAY out of left field. That's like updating Goku's appearance to look more like Batman.

For the kind of character that Superman is, there's nothing inherently wrong with the way he looks. Just like how Kakashi's appearance aligns with the kind of character that he is.

[Vordan]

Damn I just remembered another person who I’d love to see write the main Superman books: Joe Keatinge. He wrote a crazy story in Adventures of Superman, definitely recommend everyone check it out:

[Robanker]

How did we go from talking about Bendis leaving to costumes?

And hard pass on the anime stuff. No offense to the anime fans here, but.....gods no. That image from....what is it? Naruto? Generic as hell ninja stuff and typical "high school idea of cool." Again, no offense intended at all here, but there's nothing unique about that look. Spiky hair? Semi-utilitarian, slightly loose fitting "ninja" clothes? Who in manga *doesnt* look just like this? Dude looks like I could defeat him just by playing some Smashing Pumpkins and asking him a existential question.

Does Clark's suit need a tweak? Yes, DC never should have abandoned the Reborn suit, it was a *big* step in the right direction and a damn near perfect update. But Superman is not a manga character, trying to make him one is not going to work and is a fool's errand.

But you want to talk about the mythos behind the costume? Thematically speaking, Clark is the last prince of a dead planet wearing the crest of his family's nobility. His suit is an artifact from a lost world and a visual representation of his kingdom's sacrificial trade in sending their last son to us. He dresses like a foreign king to serve mankind. Sure, the design could use a little TLC and updating, but as far as thematic mythology goes it beats the piss out of most costumes.

See, manwhohaseverything hates the Space Prince aspect and I kind of don't love it either. I don't like Clark essentially being a royal figure because it conflicts with his nature as a man of the people who champions the little guy. If anything, that distances him further from his core ideals. It remains important that he's an immigrant who drapes himself in his heritage while embracing his new home and uses every facet of himself to aid those who cannot help themselves, but I can't agree with making Superman some sort of aloof royal scion sent here, raised in the dirt, and then dressing himself in royal garb and punching a slum lord. It's all kinds of weird and not in a good way.

Superman's visual is great striking. It's solid. If his silhouette feels generic it's because it's his silhouette. He's the mold. He's the ur-example of what a superhero is. Batman's silhouette is just "Superman but with ears and some pointed edges on the gloves, cowl and cape." It's not actually generic because it's literally the mold from which all are cast. The open face, neckline and hands add a carefree, inviting element-- he's not hiding anything about himself nor does he need to be completely protected in some way. The cape has a dynamic element to it that looks great in motion and adds a bit of majesty (I can see the idea of royalty here, admittedly). Yeah, the undies do evoke strongman if you know what that is supposed to be, but that visual has long since been lost to time and old cartoons so it's basically undies and Reborn was the way to go forward there. The costume works. It flat-out does.

There's a lot to take from anime and manga that can enhance superhero comics and Superman is no exception, hence why Jorge Jimenez crushes so hard right now. He adds a lot of dynamic angles and elasticity to characters on top of very strong fundamentals, shading and getting vibrant colors on there to make it all pop...

But Kakashi really does look like he was wearing his dad's fishing jacket when he tripped and fell into the discount rack at Hot Topic and just tried to play it off as intentional. I think the dude's cool in the context of his universe, but he looks just as silly as Superman strolling around with his underwear out and all primary colors. It's not a great look.

[manwhohaseverything]

Kakashi was my favorite character back when I enjoyed Naruto and I'm sorry, but no. I know you have a thing for Superman as a shounen protagonist, but come on, dude.

I stand by what i said. Kakashi is one of the best written characters in the genre. I do believe the best that genre has to offer far outweighs any thing superman does. There is no comparison between kakashi and superman. Superman would lose everytime as character. Here is a kid who's father killed himself. Who inherited his father's shame learning to value comrades more than rules. He could have stuck to his beliefs and resented his father. But, he didn't . That first small instance with kakashi alone would take apart the rule clinging boyscout. This is the guy that had to kill his girlfriend. He had to watch monster kill his sensei. One after the other he saw death and destruction. Yet, the guy never faltered. Superman wishes he has that. Superman could never build pathos like that.The guy is intelligent, lonely, optimistic, handsome ... Etc. Traits that are supposed to be superman's. He isn't naive. He is a fierce protector(something superman should be) . As said, the real white fang. Krypto would love him. If that's superman's spirit animal more so.
Edit-nobody actually saw what i wrote. I said, superman doesn't look that good enough like character xxxx to not warrant an explanation of any kind or not to build mythos around him. Kakashi is my ideal for a handsome protagonist. So i chose him.If superman can be made into xxxx he doesn't need it.

Really? They're updates on the original costume, which helped make not just a mythos but the genre. That doesn't change just because it doesn't have the trunks and the tenuous 1930s circus strongman connection that came with it

Besides, Superman is the mythos.

Trunks was never issue. It was always about making the character feel less than what he should be.A superman who isn't larger than life and mythic, just doesn't have much effect.It very much so changes things. But it happened when the trunks and circus thing became out dated. Not now. The character just didn't catch up and change itself like batman did. Batman used to be a strongman too. There was him lifting huge weights in the goldenage comics which were iconic .Now, he's a ninja who values stealth. You can't even say what superman is anymore? A guy wearing tights and jumps around. Really? As said, genre didn't exist when superman came. Yet, shuster and siegel could sell the pitch. How? They could explain what the character is in single sentence to people that can't even picturise such a thing in their heads.It is harder to sell the character more than a generic superhero.


Yeah! And the costume makes Superman .Just like it makes batman into the darkknight.

[Robanker]

I stand by what i said. Kakashi is one of the best written characters in the genre. I do believe the best that genre has to offer far outweighs any thing superman does. There is no comparison between kakashi and superman. Superman would lose everytime as character. Here is a kid who's father killed himself. Who inherited his father's shame learning to value comrades more than rules. He could have stuck to his beliefs and resented his father. But, he didn't . That first small instance with kakashi alone would take apart the rule clinging boyscout. This is the guy that had to kill his girlfriend. He had to watch monster kill his sensei. One after the other he saw death and destruction. Yet, the guy never faltered. Superman wishes he has that. Superman could never build pathos like that.The guy is intelligent, lonely, optimistic, handsome ... Etc. Traits that are supposed to be superman's. He isn't naive. He is a fierce protector(something superman should be) . As said, the real white fang. Krypto would love him. If that's superman's spirit animal more so.
Edit-nobody actually saw what i wrote. I said, superman doesn't look that good enough like character xxxx to not warrant an explanation of any kind or not to build mythos around him. Kakashi is my ideal for a handsome protagonist. So i chose him.If superman can be made into xxxx he doesn't need it.


Trunks was never issue. It was always about making the character feel less than what he should be.A superman who isn't larger than life and mythic, just doesn't have much effect.It very much so changes things. But it happened when the trunks and circus thing became out dated. Not now. The character just didn't catch up and change itself like batman did. Batman used to be a strongman too. There was him lifting huge weights in the goldenage comics which were iconic .Now, he's a ninja who values stealth. You can't even say what superman is anymore? A guy wearing tights and jumps around. Really? As said, genre didn't exist when superman came. Yet, shuster and siegel could sell the pitch. How? They could explain what the character is in single sentence to people that can't even picturise such a thing in their heads.It is harder to sell the character more than a generic superhero.


Yeah! And the costume makes Superman .Just like it makes batman into the darkknight.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but most of us disagree.

[Vakanai]

I stand by what i said. Kakashi is one of the best written characters in the genre. I do believe the best that genre has to offer far outweighs any thing superman does. There is no comparison between kakashi and superman. Superman would lose everytime as character. Here is a kid who's father killed himself. Who inherited his father's shame learning to value comrades more than rules. He could have stuck to his beliefs and resented his father. But, he didn't . That first small instance with kakashi alone would take apart the rule clinging boyscout. This is the guy that had to kill his girlfriend. He had to watch monster kill his sensei. One after the other he saw death and destruction. Yet, the guy never faltered. Superman wishes he has that. Superman could never build pathos like that.The guy is intelligent, lonely, optimistic, handsome ... Etc. Traits that are supposed to be superman's. He isn't naive. He is a fierce protector(something superman should be) . As said, the real white fang. Krypto would love him. If that's superman's spirit animal more so.
Edit-nobody actually saw what i wrote. I said, superman doesn't look that good enough like character xxxx to not warrant an explanation of any kind or not to build mythos around him. Kakashi is my ideal for a handsome protagonist. So i chose him.If superman can be made into xxxx he doesn't need it.


Trunks was never issue. It was always about making the character feel less than what he should be.A superman who isn't larger than life and mythic, just doesn't have much effect.It very much so changes things. But it happened when the trunks and circus thing became out dated. Not now. The character just didn't catch up and change itself like batman did. Batman used to be a strongman too. There was him lifting huge weights in the goldenage comics which were iconic .Now, he's a ninja who values stealth. You can't even say what superman is anymore? A guy wearing tights and jumps around. Really? As said, genre didn't exist when superman came. Yet, shuster and siegel could sell the pitch. How? They could explain what the character is in single sentence to people that can't even picturise such a thing in their heads.It is harder to sell the character more than a generic superhero.


Yeah! And the costume makes Superman .Just like it makes batman into the darkknight.

One sentence, try - powerful wish fulfillment who fights for whatever is right and good in the world.

[manwhohaseverything]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but most of us disagree.

My point was never about kakashi or superman. People just took that and ran with it. That's not my problem . if you could sell me what he is in sentence then i would understand people's opposition.

Fine, lets play questions and answers
Sell me superman in 2020

Q:what is this superman character ?
A:he is a superhero. (that's all you will have)
Q:Well, there are hundreds of them. What makes this one special?
A:He has ideals and has morals. He stands for hope.
Q:Most of them do. What do you mean by hope?
A:He inspires people by being an example and teaches them to never give up
Q:Well, isn't that what a standard hero suppose to do? That doesn't make him special. Anyways, how does he do it?
A:By being the moral example who never does anything wrong.
Q:Wouldn't that make him perfect? I am not sure that would be relatable
A:No, he actually isn't. He lies sometimes.
Q:That's ok, i guess. Anyways, what is his personality quirks? What is he like?
A:He is optimistic, kind, good.. Etc. He is this big blue boyscout and likes to guide people on what they do.
Q:Ok. Sell me, one good instance.
A:"you are stronger than you believe"
Q:Hmph! That's good. But, doesn't winnie the pooh do the samething?I am still not getting anything special. Just flesh out the concept a bit.
Ok, you said he is a superhero. What is his superpower?
A:He has superstrength, speed, laser vision,.. Etc. You know the standard superhero powers.Oh!he flies.
Q:Well,that's umm! There are too many guys like that. I don't feel anything special.Maybe you should try again later.
A:wait sir, there is one more thing. He is supposed to be a savior figure who saves people from themselves .
Q:Hmph! Like what? Jesus?That's fine,I guess. but i don't think that would be entertaining. Please try again later after fleshing out the concept.

Anyone who wants to participate can change up the answers and add more questions if you like. But, i would appreciate if the questions remained similar in nature.
"those who don't follow the rules are trash. But, those who abandon their comrades are even worse than trash"
That abandoning comrades bit has big implications and range in naruto verse. If you give up on your comrades ideals. Then you are abandoning him. Modern Superman should learn this basic thing if you ask me. Rules aren't everything.

One sentence, try - powerful wish fulfillment who fights for whatever is right and good in the world.

Yeah! That's what every other supehero does. Even batman is a wish fulfillment. I mean, batgod exists.

[manwhohaseverything]

See, manwhohaseverything hates the Space Prince aspect and I kind of don't love it either. I don't like Clark essentially being a royal figure because it conflicts with his nature as a man of the people who champions the little guy. If anything, that distances him further from his core ideals. It remains important that he's an immigrant who drapes himself in his heritage while embracing his new home and uses every facet of himself to aid those who cannot help themselves, but I can't agree with making Superman some sort of aloof royal scion sent here, raised in the dirt, and then dressing himself in royal garb and punching a slum lord. It's all kinds of weird and not in a good way.

On a more surface level, More than that it's a stupid contrived grandiose explanation to make it feel important . It isn't as dramatic as people think it is. Wearing tights is kryptonIan fashion?the s is symbol of hope literally?please.These aren't as great or dramatic as people think it is. It's not earned. As said, it robs Clark's agency. The character is stuck in his past with parents(both sets of them) that he doesn't grow as a person, actually . What happened to being a modern day gladiator/slave? Are we seriously going to make him into a knight/a royal stooge?if that's the intention, good luck. Batman is going to kick his ass.why?he is the dark knight.Superman's antithesis.

[Vakanai]

My point was never about kakashi or superman. People just took that and ran with it. That's not my problem . if you could sell me what he is in sentence then i would understand people's opposition.

Fine, lets play questions and answers
Sell me superman in 2020

Q:what is this superman character ?
A:he is a superhero. (that's all you will have)

I have more.
A. He's the original in a sea of imitators, the alien trying to blend in, the reporter keeping a lid on his own biggest story, the chillest alpha dog on the team, and the guy who'll always do the right thing no matter how it makes him look.

Q:Well, there are hundreds of them. What makes this one special?
A:He has ideals and has morals. He stands for hope.

That's not my A. This is my A.
A. He's special because he's the original. There's only hundreds because there was the one, him. Others have a secret identity because he does. Others wear a costume because he does. Others fly because he does. Others are strong because he is. Name a superhero, and the things that make them special was what they needed to be different from him. All heroes are defined by him, by how they try to do something different from the guy who kicked it all off.

Q:Most of them do. What do you mean by hope?
A:He inspires people by being an example and teaches them to never give up
Q:Well, isn't that what a standard hero suppose to do? That doesn't make him special. Anyways, how does he do it?
A:By being the moral example who never does anything wrong.
Q:Wouldn't that make him perfect? I am not sure that would be relatable
A:No, he actually isn't. He lies sometimes.
Q:That's ok, i guess. Anyways, what is his personality quirks? What is he like?
A:He is optimistic, kind, good.. Etc. He is this big blue boyscout and likes to guide people on what they do.
Q:Ok. Sell me, one good instance.
A:"you are stronger than you believe"
Q:Hmph! That's good. But, doesn't winnie the pooh do the samething?I am still not getting anything special. Just flesh out the concept a bit.
Ok, you said he is a superhero. What is his superpower?
A:He has superstrength, speed, laser vision,.. Etc. You know the standard superhero powers.Oh!he flies.
Q:Well,that's umm! There are too many guys like that. I don't feel anything special.Maybe you should try again later.
A:wait sir, there is one more thing. He is supposed to be a savior figure who saves people from themselves .
Q:Hmph! Like what? Jesus?That's fine,I guess. but i don't think that would be entertaining. Please try again later after fleshing out the concept.

There's a word for answering your own questions to try and make your point - Strawman. How about asking others and maybe it won't go in this direction you're so sure of?

Anyone who wants to participate can change up the answers and add more questions if you like. But, i would appreciate if the questions remained similar in nature.

Kind of an impossible ask. After answering just 2 of your questions it already went off script. You based each of your questions on what you assumed the answers to the previous one would be. If I don't answer similar to yours, it just gets weird. "Well all the other heroes inspire hope too" when my answer is radically different than that. Just set up wrong. It's leading the direction no matter how others answer it.

Yeah! That's what every other supehero does. Even batman is a wish fulfillment. I mean, batgod exists.

That's what every other superhero does because they're all following Superman's example. He's the OG superhero. He doesn't need to separate himself from the pack, the pack had to separate themselves from him to standout. He's the original pepperoni pizza while everyone else is pineapple.