Bendis leaving the Superman and Action Comics in December

[kilderkin]

I don't see it. He preaches a lot and actually does very little. I don't feel he is trying. He has his bubble of friends and family. He doesn't see beyond that. Ofcourse, he goes to space now and then. Watches the earth from a different vantage point. But, that's away from actual real people and societies . He is disconnected. Moreover, it's not because he is simple that he is boring. It's because he is boring that he is boring. He just doesn't have anything to him. Superman was that simple as well. If you misuse your strength to dominate and control the weak. Then you are going down. I love me a simple character with convictions.

Whilst I appreciate opinions vary

And I can't say how he's been in the bendis run

I think much of the idea that superman hasn't done much is garbage

I'm not even gonna justify that with a list of the many many things he's done, not to mention the off panel things that are implied

Now you might not like him, that's fine

But to suggest in the thousand plus comics hrs been in he hasn't done stuff

Just silly imo

[manwhohaseverything]

Whilst I appreciate opinions vary

And I can't say how he's been in the bendis run

I think much of the idea that superman hasn't done much is garbage

I'm not even gonna justify that with a list of the many many things he's done, not to mention the off panel things that are implied

Now you might not like him, that's fine

But to suggest in the thousand plus comics hrs been in he hasn't done stuff

Just silly imo

No, no, no. You said "try". You said "try to make world a better place".I say, ridiculous. Superman doesn't struggle.
i never argued he doesn't do stuff. He does do stuff. Does he struggle? does he try? Nope. That requires effort, grit.. Etc. The only time i have seen that from the character is when he is getting beaten to death. But, then he becomes comfortable with that situation as well. The guy is trying to play the bigger man by "holding back". When in actuality, he doesn't know a thing about effort or struggle in any domain to actually know the value of holding back. He is no buddha and he is no Sisyphus.Struggle, real struggle is not about getting comfortable with what you have or what the world is.It's about relentless pushing of limits, breaking chains(human condition) that binds you and restrict your movements.

Moreover, what's m. O(modus operandi) for achieving better world? Kindness and love? That's ok. I would need him to put it in action, show me that it actually works and to what extent. Finally, what's his definition of better world? Dignity, honor and justice? Two of them. Require effort(honor and digniy). Justice requires conviction,ideals and ability to use reason and morality to understand. Superman is naive, he doesn't believe that humanity has the capacity to be evil. Justice would be foreign concept to him.

[kilderkin]

No, no, no. You said "try". You said "try to make world a better place".I say, ridiculous. Superman doesn't struggle.
i never argued he doesn't do stuff. He does do stuff. Does he struggle? does he try? Nope. That requires effort, grit.. Etc. The only time i have seen that from the character is when he is getting beaten to death. But, then he becomes comfortable with that situation as well. The guy is trying to play the bigger man by "holding back". When in actuality, he doesn't know a thing about effort or struggle in any domain to actually know the value of holding back. He is no buddha.Struggle, real struggle is not about getting comfortable with what you have or what the world is.It's about relentless pushimg of limits, breaking chains(human condition) that binds you and restrict your movements.

Yes yes yes

Try as in don't give up no matter the odds

Superman keeps trying and does try because in spite of all he can and has achieved, sadly there is still more to do, like I said, never ending fight

When has superman faced real difficulty, here's a few

Every time he fights a bad guy and has to restrain himself from just popping them

Every time someone tries to give him radiation poisoning

Every time someone threatens a civilian which draws him away from saving someone else or stopping some other threat killing another less able hero

Specific examples

Soaking a war head from war world, nearly killing him which at the time he didn't know he would survive, which in turn also decked his cousin

Facing off against the spectre, a being he knew was much more powerful than him, in order to save his cousin along the way pushing himself so far he was on the way of flying to heaven and knew he might not have any hope of getting back being lost alone forever and still pushing on


Stopping braniacs plots even though he knows he can't out smart him and that every victory is just a temporary reprieve because it's an immortal sociopathic AI that will always come back, but in spite of that he still keeps trying to stop him


Risking his life flying through a red sun just to weaken prime even though it might kill him

Keep trying to stop perpetua in spite of the hopeless odds, and actually failing but still striving on

Facing mongul many times in spite of knowing the guys was capable of beating him physically

Fighting in the crisis against hopeless odds that ultimately he couldn't defeat but still doing do in hopes he would help others win in the long run

Battling imperix, a being capable of blotting out world's knowing it had killed doomsday, the guy that murdered him

Blocking bullets for batman when he was practically out of power in the darkest night story and not knowing if he was still able to take them

Whilst without powers talking down a gunman





Taking the omega effect on the chin to save others whilst not knowing he could soak it

Never giving up trying to fly home in a dark dimension knowing each effort might trap him forever, and actually failing but still tried so he could get back to his home to stop perpetua

Every time he faces off against a being like darkseid

Facing off and battling doomsday to the death knowing it was a fight to the finish

Repeatedly going back up against doomsday knowing this was the guy who murdered him

Diving into the despair of the dark multiverse knowing it might not be a return trip

Every time he faces the madness of myx knowing he could just be blinked out of existence

Trying to be a good husband and father whilst also saving the world, universe, multiverse

Just because he's powerful doesn't mean he's guaranteed success, in mythos



I could go on

His greatest battle might be trying to hold on to his humanity and upbringing when he's not actually human, as batman suggested the world is lucky he does not think himself a god, this inner battle is ever persistent and a core to his character

There is a certain innocence in his belief that humanity is generally good, of course that was recently explored in synders jla doom Vs justice plot

But in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, he still tries to maintain hope in us

Now if you want to try and nit pick the use of the word try, to suggest everything he does is easy,

Well if it was, everyone would be doing it

[Robanker]

It *can* remove Clark more from his core ideals if writers lean into the idea of him *acting* like royalty, but it's also a more personal reminder of what he lost when Krypton blew up; not just a home and parents but status. He *should* have grown up with privilege; the son of Krypton's greatest mind, with access to all the opportunities and education such a social position would indicate, and Kal would certainly have followed his father into a position of great authority on the Counsel.

Instead he spent his youth mucking out stables, milking cows, and getting up before the sun rose to do menial labor around a small, humble farm. How many fairy tales and myths start out with a exiled/lost prince living the life of the common man, only to grow up and use his great power and authority for the betterment of the people, rather than the higher institutions they were born into? Superman coming from such a "royal" background, but being a salt-of-the-earth, working class guy is pretty archetypal. If a writer goes in the wrong direction with that and writes Superman acting like a king then the writer doesn't get the character in the first place and this particular element is the least of our problems.

Oh, a great many. In fact, a lot of Arthurian legends place the young Pendragon in humble beginnings as a squire who does little more than clean after where others **** and fetching their belongings. The big thing, though, is that Clark can also tow a galaxy on a chain in some stories so you need to heavily balance that with really doubling down that he's one of us in some very vital way. While it may be nothing more than a title to Clark himself, it does have a profound effect on the audience which can't be understated. Hell, his being an alien already turns off a ton of people when he's visually and functionally no different to a human than Spider-Man, but we're told he came from somewhere else so people disconnect because how dare I empathize with someone based on who they are instead of the context of their birth. Context is extremely important here, sadly, because the general public are not bright enough to see a person's character.

Moreover, I think playing up the son of alarmed scientists works a lot better than the last scion of a royal family from the stars. It connects to Krypton's destruction more cleanly and points him to a more scientific inheritance from his family, thus giving writers more tools for him to showcase intelligence. Not to mention we already have two royals on the Justice League and Batman is essentially the prince of Earth as DC portrays him. Superman coming from civilians, scientist or farmers, and being one himself sets him apart from the grand myths on the JLA and in general. Everyone expects him to be this exalted figure of legend but in reality he's just the product of people who cared for their planets and others. He wasn't some chosen one or some ordained son of a noble house. He's just someone who can help, so he does. Giving him even the smallest royal burden of needing to help people also takes away from the concept that he's got no real reason to do what he does other than he feels it's the right thing to do and he enjoys helping. It gives all the agency to Clark's character rather than knowing that he comes from royalty and all good nobles should serve their people. It overall works better in showing that his noble character is something anyone can have.

I totally get where you're coming from on his mythological elements, and the contrast works, but that's also Aquaman's gimmick and he does it better than Clark ever would. Atlantis is basically an alien culture under the sea and he's the son of its Queen, raised on land as a humble lighthouse keeper's son. He eventually discovers his heritage and returns to Atlantis when it's in turmoil and becomes its king, uniting other oceans and doing his best to make peace with the rest of the world. His country betrays him and attempts to kill him, but at their greatest times of peril he always returns and saves them from themselves, knowing they'll return his throne and put a dagger in his side for all his troubles down the line. Nevertheless, he continues to reluctantly be the legendary hero king they'll sing of forevermore when all he wants is to retire to his lighthouse with Mera and their dog. Arthur does the reluctant hero noble thing better than Clark ever could, and I don't think making him "The Prince Who Refused the Call of Destiny in Lieu of Being a Man of the People" resonates as strongly when arguments are already being made that Clark himself could do a helluva lot more to help people. When you have him ignoring a birthright that demands he take a more active role, it probably only galvanizes the criticisms of his approach of keeping us safe while trying to lead us into a better tomorrow.

If DC let Clark get a lot more involved with the plights of people (busting up corrupt police and politicians in Metropolis, for example), it could work, but outside of an elseworlds I don't know they're going to go there.

[Ascended]

Context is extremely important here, sadly, because the general public are not bright enough to see a person's character.

Well you got a point there. But Superman should never aim at appeasing the lowest common denominator, either.

Moreover, I think playing up the son of alarmed scientists works a lot better than the last scion of a royal family from the stars

I maybe should've clarified; I was speaking from a thematic perspective, not a literal one. I wouldn't want the El's to be *actual* royalty, I'm quite satisfied with Jor and Lara being Krypton's leading scientists and don't need them wearing crowns. I'd rather Krypton not have royalty of any kind actually, but within Kryptonian culture the El's seem to be a pretty big deal, something like a mix of a political dynasty and think tank. Kal-El wasn't born with a crown, but his life on Krypton would have been filled with every advantage and he would've been expected to take up a lofty, important position in adulthood, as his father, grandfather, etc., did.

The idea of Krypton treating their leading families like a kind of quasi-royalty is not a new idea, nor is the idea of writing Clark as *something* like a king without *actually* being or acting like one. I'm just saying there's strong thematics to play with there, especially juxtaposed against his humble upbringing in Smallville and his "champion of the people" attitude.

If DC let Clark get a lot more involved with the plights of people (busting up corrupt police and politicians in Metropolis, for example), it could work, but outside of an elseworlds I don't know they're going to go there.

This is true. In my head we're already there. Sometimes I forget that the Superman I remember and the Superman we actually have are very different animals....

But, I swear to god, if DC can't look at the world around us, and recognize that maybe we need the OG people's champion back.....then they might as well just all quit, because they're clearly not capable of doing their jobs and us message board pleebs should take over. Gods know we couldn't do any worse with Clark than DC usually does.

[Vordan]

More than King Arthur, it’s Luke Skywalker with whom I feel Superman has the strongest thematic ties. A victim of tragedy, raised as an adopted son by backwater farmers, longing to know more about his origins, gifted with extraordinary power on account of his heritage, and filled with the desire to leave the place he grew up and go out into the world. Ultimately Superman is Superman (although he had an “I am your Father moment recently ) and he is his own archetype, but it’s Luke that I see the strongest thematic parallels too. OT Luke that is lol.

[Laufeyson]

More than King Arthur, it’s Luke Skywalker with whom I feel Superman has the strongest thematic ties. A victim of tragedy, raised as an adopted son by backwater farmers, longing to know more about his origins, gifted with extraordinary power on account of his heritage, and filled with the desire to leave the place he grew up and go out into the world. Ultimately Superman is Superman (although he had an “I am your Father moment recently ) and he is his own archetype, but it’s Luke that I see the strongest thematic parallels too. OT Luke that is lol.

The reason why Luke Skywalker feels closer to Superman than Arthur is I believe because of his root that took an inspiration from Flash Gordon, a pulp-hero. But, I believe I read that George Lucas rips several comics such as New Gods, The Valerian, Superman and many more. The New Gods and Superman similarity is mentioned in Tom Scioli's Jack Kirby autobiography comic.

[Prime]

What are you guys talking about

[Somecrazyaussie]

That doesn't even get into the differences between Maajiin Buu and Doomsday which are much more extreme. Maajiin Buu first of all has different powers from Doomsday, a completely different appearance, a different personality, which is to say, Maajiin Buu actually has a personality, Doomsday is just a rampaging beast. About the only thing they both have in common is that they can regenerate. But they're regenerations even work differently. And the whole "monster in the ground" thing? The guys who wrote Doomsday didn't invent that. That's been a trope in fiction for a long time.

Maajiin Buu has a whole different vibe. He's a superpowerful cartoon character who's goofiness and silliness belies his menace. Doomsday is just the baddest monster Superman has ever faced (at that point in his career). They're entirely different concepts apart from being powerful monsters.

They also tell a different story. Notably the heroic sacrifice is performed by someone other than the supposed Superman-analog and it fails to stop the Doomsday-analog. In this story, the Superman analog starts out dead and comes back to life to beat the Doomsday analog, and that reversal is just the simplest of ways the story is different. I'm not going to defend the Majiin Buu plot. Its drags on far too long and is silly and convoluted. Doomsday's story by comparison is short and to the point (if anything its too simple for a the Death of Superman story), but that just reinforces my point that there are major differences between the stories and the characters.

Fat Buu, yes. But once we get to Kid Buu, he is pretty much just a rampaging beast with a limited vocabulary who gets off on causing destruction and death. He also loves to fight opponents who can match him. Doomsday did the same when he headed for Metropolis after seeing that billboard with wrestlers on it.

Nevertheless, I do agree regarding the stories. The entire Buu arc was just pulling stuff out of nowhere and dragged on with one contrivance after another. The Death of Superman was, by contrast, short and to the point. But the death wasn't the focus of the story. That was just a means to initiate what came after. The creative personnel will tell you that Funeral For A Friend and Reign is the crux of the story. Because it allowed them to explore the importance of Superman and why the character matters.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Supermans world view is very simple

If you have the ability to make the world a better place, you should try

You might not succeed, but you should try

That's why it's a never ending fight

Some might find that simplistic and boring

Personally I think it's as heroic as it gets

This. Couldn't agree more.

[Vordan]

What are you guys talking about

We’re just shooting the breeze man. We probably won’t know who the next creative teams will be until Jan solicits, and even then we might get a filler team or two before the “real” successors take over. Can’t really talk or speculate about what happens next until we know who will be guiding the ship.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well you got a point there. But Superman should never aim at appeasing the lowest common denominator, either.

I think i didn't answer you why i hate the knights iconography for superman. Simply put, he is gladiator/slave from the beginning. I think other than create a round table with clearly defined enemies(the friend-enemy distinction) . The things knights created had great potential to cause serious repercussions and prejudices . Knights are more often than not associated with conformity and reluctance to view anything outside purview of their "chivalrous" code with disdain. They create repressed societies because they cannot think beyond good and evil. Knights would label me heretic for not chosing state religion. People should really read berserk it takes apart the noble white knight like darkknight returns did superman. There is a reason darkknights who were villains in the old tales are now seen as heroes like guts, bruce.. Etc.Guts is a man born from dead corpse of his heretic mother who was hanged. The batman was born in an alley where his parents where shot dead. They know evil. They have felt it. They have inherently felt the need for vengeance.

Superman is also a monster, a dragon..etc.Superman would be repressing himself to fit in to club of "superheroes" and "knights" . The man of two world in his worst form could never be just a knight. Even darkknight returns showed that struggle. There is a reason he looks like us. That other side is hidden, now is shoved under by the weight of knightly ethics. Its his shadow that's screaming. There is a reason diana is shown to be in acceptance of binding. While clark? he would suffocate in chains. Sure enough, a gladiator has his own tendencies of cruelty and barbarianisms. But, they aren't an organisation. They can get organised. But, they would still be renegades. They are trying to get freedom from rigid system that binds them and chains them. It would be counter productive to be conformists. Even a darkknight, at the end of the day is just a knight. Look at the way bruce treats jason who has fully embraced being a dragon. A true Superman should be beyond such things. Moreover, jason feels more like a gladiator these days.

@robbanker arthur would be captain america ,not Superman with serum being his sword in the stone. Zack snyder tried to shove that into superman mythos. I don't think it worked as well.

[Kuwagaton]

We’re just shooting the breeze man. We probably won’t know who the next creative teams will be until Jan solicits, and even then we might get a filler team or two before the “real” successors take over. Can’t really talk or speculate about what happens next until we know who will be guiding the ship.

Which I'm almost hoping isn't Mark Waid. He's a perfectly fine writer and I've never believed in the idea that someone wouldn't "deserve" to write the character... that whole thing is worse considering that Birthright is still one of the character's most popular stories despite being quickly abandoned.

But I'm just too wary of what a Waid run looks like in 2021. To me it's like when Jurgens had to start from scratch in the New 52. I'd be there to see him give it a shot but it's not a direction that excites me.

[Darthfury78]

This.

And I say this as someone who really wanted to like Bendis' run. I enjoyed a lot of his previous works, but this didn't do it for me except for a few moments here and there.

Considering how he treated his characters at Marvel, a writer is only as good as his last work. He made Spider-Man(earth-616) into the class clown. I am not surprised of how he treated Superman. The moment when he was going to write the series, I stopped reading it. The next book that he'll tackle is Batman.

[Vordan]

Which I'm almost hoping isn't Mark Waid. He's a perfectly fine writer and I've never believed in the idea that someone wouldn't "deserve" to write the character... that whole thing is worse considering that Birthright is still one of the character's most popular stories despite being quickly abandoned.

But I'm just too wary of what a Waid run looks like in 2021. To me it's like when Jurgens had to start from scratch in the New 52. I'd be there to see him give it a shot but it's not a direction that excites me.

I would have thought Waid would rather do a standalone follow up to Birthright, but I don’t know what DC’s policy will be to support standalone stories going forward. Venditti is someone who feels like he could get one of the books. He’s done with Hawkman and he has said he’s got another DC project in the works. He loves Superman and wants to write him which he’s already done with Man of Tomorrow, so he could be a solid Jurgens-type of writer. He’s written solid stuff with Hal N Pals, and the 12 issues of Hawkman with Hitch I read were legit great. I like his Zod a lot too. My only mark against him is I’m hungry for someone to really wow us with their take. I don’t want an “ok” or even “solid” run, I want a great run. I can’t help but be envious of Ewing on Hulk or HiX-Men or even Tynion Batman right now. I want something amazing, and I don’t know if Venditti can deliver that. Give Yang the other book though and I’d be ok with Venditti getting one as well, since I still believe Yang has it in him to write an all-time great Superman run given how much I loved New Superman and Superman Smashes The Klan