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  1. #61
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    The problem is that certain stories can't fit into the same place at the same time. Even important ones as they can contradict one another. It is a problem Rebirth ran into. I imagine that will still be a problem even in this new relaunch. Plus the problems compound as writers add in new stories or start rewriting old ones to fit better. Like with Wonder Woman, who is now going to be on her 4th or 5th reboot since the New 52, with them making her the first superhero and a founding JSA member, which is something she has never been before. It is something that doesn't really line up with her old or even recent stories.
    Yes. How do you reconcile the Silver/Bronze Age Superman with the modern Superman's history? How does Lex go from being an infamous criminal to being the corporate villain Lex post Crisis? There's so much that contradicts in the Superman history it makes it very difficult to see how that can all happen in the same reality.
    For other characters, like Batman and GL, it can work much smoother, but I think Superman's history pre and post Crisis is the hardest to reconcile. o

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Yes. How do you reconcile the Silver/Bronze Age Superman with the modern Superman's history? How does Lex go from being an infamous criminal to being the corporate villain Lex post Crisis? There's so much that contradicts in the Superman history it makes it very difficult to see how that can all happen in the same reality.
    For other characters, like Batman and GL, it can work much smoother, but I think Superman's history pre and post Crisis is the hardest to reconcile. o
    Eh it's easy, just makes it like Alan Moore's Supreme, where actually the Silver Age Superman is under his hijinks adventures and then through the Supermen league, he return to Earth, but he found everything is more modern. Everything changed, and the Earth is having a new status quo here and there which is different from his Silver Age Earth. DING. Silver Age Superman is Modern Continuity. I believe it's the same approach that is being used to retcon Post-Crisis Superman to replace New52 Superman. So why don't they used it.

    For Lex... if Superman has his league of SUPERMEN, why a man as smart as Lex can't have his LEAGUE OF LEX LUTHOR, a league to destroy Superman.

  3. #63
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    Either reality/history changes or superman reality/history changes,which one will it be when this is over DC?

  4. #64
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Eh it's easy, just makes it like Alan Moore's Supreme, where actually the Silver Age Superman is under his hijinks adventures and then through the Supermen league, he return to Earth, but he found everything is more modern. Everything changed, and the Earth is having a new status quo here and there which is different from his Silver Age Earth. DING. Silver Age Superman is Modern Continuity. I believe it's the same approach that is being used to retcon Post-Crisis Superman to replace New52 Superman. So why don't they used it.

    For Lex... if Superman has his league of SUPERMEN, why a man as smart as Lex can't have his LEAGUE OF LEX LUTHOR, a league to destroy Superman.
    If I understand what you're saying, you're suggesting to acknowledge that the retcons all happened on the same Earth. That sounds super confusing, and wouldn't clear up what happened to which version of the character. I think it sounds a lot more confusing than even the confusing mess we have now.
    Short of an awkward pasting together of irreconcilable histories, I don't see how the pre Crisis and post Crisis histories can work. Of course, they did just that with pre Flashpoint and New 52 and I accepted it because it brought back pre Flashpoint elements that I loved, and I didn't mind losing the New 52 elements to get it. But even that pasting together required jettisoning a lot of history and stories, such as the Wonder Woman and Superman relationship which is no longer in continuity. So even that didn't allow for everything to be kept.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think you could broadly have the pre and post Crisis Superman histories as long as it was mapped out well. The only significant things to come out of post-COIE Superman canon are his death and marriage, and some characters like Kon, Maggie, Cat Grant and Steel. That's really all there is. You could apply all that to a pre-COIE template, at least the general events if not the specifics characterizations and continuity. Like have a Clark who was Superboy in Smallville with a childhood rivalry with Luthor, adventures with the Legion, Krypto, Kara debuting when she should as a peer to Barbara Gordon!Batgirl, but also marry Lois after coming back from Doomsday.

    It wouldn't fit exactly and one of the versions is going to lose specifics (my vote goes for the post-COIE end of the spectrum to lose out, meaning stuff like the Kents being dead) but not impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I don't really think Diana should be made a retroactive legacy character to a title that started with her.
    yeah, hard pass on Hippolyta. It's an unsatisfactory half measure that tries to give us full Wonder Woman history, without reflecting how it actually went down which is always annoying. Her ties to WWII and the JSA are not that important without just putting them all on Earth-2.

    The only key figure from the golden age that requires that setting that doesn't work otherwise is Paula von Gunther, and we can either have her end up on the island like she did in Earth One, or just have Veronica Cale fill her function. The rest of her villains and supporting cast can be updated no problem.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think you could broadly have the pre and post Crisis Superman histories as long as it was mapped out well. The only significant things to come out of post-COIE Superman canon are his death and marriage, and some characters like Kon, Maggie, Cat Grant and Steel. That's really all there is. You could apply all that to a pre-COIE template, at least the general events if not the specifics characterizations and continuity. Like have a Clark who was Superboy in Smallville with a childhood rivalry with Luthor, adventures with the Legion, Krypto, Kara debuting when she should as a peer to Barbara Gordon!Batgirl, but also marry Lois after coming back from Doomsday.

    It wouldn't fit exactly and one of the versions is going to lose specifics (my vote goes for the post-COIE end of the spectrum to lose out, meaning stuff like the Kents being dead) but not impossible.
    That's exactly the way to please no one.

    What is the significant pre-COIE that could add in the current continuity (that isn't already part of modern Superman)?

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    That's exactly the way to please no one.

    What is the significant pre-COIE that could add in the current continuity (that isn't already part of modern Superman)?
    Why wouldn't it please anyone?

    Basically the entire lore comes from pre-COIE, and none of it has clear consistent connections anymore in modern Superman and hasn't in a while. Like the on again/off again ties with the Legion. What is gained by keeping stuff away?

    Not much of significance comes from post-COIE. Lois, Jimmy, the Daily Planet, Smallville, Supergirl, Krypto, the Legion, Kryptonite, the majority of the major villains, all come from pre-COIE and their statuses are always in flux. Again, there isn't much besides Doomsday and the marriage. And now the kid, but it's way too recent to be deemed essential. The Kents being alive as well, but that's always been pointless and robs Superman of key bits of characterization.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 09-18-2020 at 08:09 AM.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    That's exactly the way to please no one.

    What is the significant pre-COIE that could add in the current continuity (that isn't already part of modern Superman)?
    Is Clark as Superboy in Smallville part of modern Superman?
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Wait, DC is consistent with its universe? Isn't this house is built with retcon and reboot. I mean, even from the start, DC never really shy away from the fact that its the home built from merging and convulting mess.
    No, they're not, which is why I want them to start to be consistent.

    They can do retcons as long as they fit
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 09-18-2020 at 08:24 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Why wouldn't it please anyone?

    Basically the entire lore comes from pre-COIE, and none of it has clear consistent connections anymore in modern Superman and hasn't in a while. Like the on again/off again ties with the Legion. What is gained by keeping stuff away?

    Not much of significance comes from post-COIE. Lois, Jimmy, the Daily Planet, Smallville, Supergirl, Krypto, the Legion, Kryptonite, the majority of the major villains, all come from pre-COIE and their statuses are always in flux. Again, there isn't much besides Doomsday and the marriage. And now the kid, but it's way too recent to be deemed essential. The Kents being alive as well, but that's always been pointless and robs Superman of key bits of characterization.
    I know the lore come from Pre-COIE, and it is part of the current Superman too. That's why I wonder for something that isn't already part of modern Superman.

    I guess Clark as Superboy in Smallville (this is still not part of the canon? ) and the Legion, but I don't know if that parts are so significan to the lore.


    Most of the significant things of Pre-COIE are part of current Superman and they could always add Superboy in Smallville and Legion. That wouldn't mean the current Superman will be his pre-COIE versión.
    Last edited by Konja7; 09-18-2020 at 08:29 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I know the lore come from Pre-COIE, and it is part of the current Superman too. That's why I wonder for something that isn't already part of modern Superman.

    I guess Clark as Superboy in Smallville (?) and the Legion, but I don't know if that part is so significan to the lore.
    Superboy in Smallville is not really important, but Legion that's really, really important not only to Legion, but also to DC Universe in general.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Is Clark as Superboy in Smallville part of modern Superman?
    I don't think so. If we use the Secret Origin or New 52 rendition of Superman, then he is definitely never a Superboy in Smallville.

  13. #73
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    I know the lore come from Pre-COIE, and it is part of the current Superman too. That's why I wonder for something that isn't already part of modern Superman.

    I guess Clark as Superboy in Smallville (?) and the Legion, but I don't know if that part is so significan to the lore.
    Like in all these fandom discussions, it depends on who you ask.
    For me and a lot of others, Superboy and the Legion are very important. Clark's childhood shouldn't be normal, and if he's going to live up to the legend of the greatest superhero, he needs to have that experience under his belt. Neither he or the Legion have benefited from that clear connection being severed. Look how many reboots they've had and still never reached the heights they had before COIE happened. Removing the Smallville adventures is also the main reason we have the Kents alive in the present as we wouldn't have reason to see them otherwise, but them being alive undermines key feelings of isolation/alienation that Clark has as an adult (a lot of it self created, which makes him more interesting). He doesn't angst about it relentlessly, but it should be there before he marries Lois.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think you could broadly have the pre and post Crisis Superman histories as long as it was mapped out well. The only significant things to come out of post-COIE Superman canon are his death and marriage, and some characters like Kon, Maggie, Cat Grant and Steel. That's really all there is. You could apply all that to a pre-COIE template, at least the general events if not the specifics characterizations and continuity. Like have a Clark who was Superboy in Smallville with a childhood rivalry with Luthor, adventures with the Legion, Krypto, Kara debuting when she should as a peer to Barbara Gordon!Batgirl, but also marry Lois after coming back from Doomsday.

    It wouldn't fit exactly and one of the versions is going to lose specifics (my vote goes for the post-COIE end of the spectrum to lose out, meaning stuff like the Kents being dead) but not impossible.



    yeah, hard pass on Hippolyta. It's an unsatisfactory half measure that tries to give us full Wonder Woman history, without reflecting how it actually went down which is always annoying. Her ties to WWII and the JSA are not that important without just putting them all on Earth-2.

    The only key figure from the golden age that requires that setting that doesn't work otherwise is Paula von Gunther, and we can either have her end up on the island like she did in Earth One, or just have Veronica Cale fill her function. The rest of her villains and supporting cast can be updated no problem.
    Especially when her ties start with being their secretary.

    But yeah, if there was the right writer I could be down for Diana debuting in WW2 still being active in the modern day but she isn't intrinsically tied to the World Wars anymore than Superman to the Depression or Spider-Man to the 60s.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Superboy in Smallville is not really important, but Legion that's really, really important not only to Legion, but also to DC Universe in general.
    Easy let him have his time in Legion and send him back to Smallville with an erased or sealed off memory of it. Once he becomes Superman-he meets Legion and those memories come back.

    No Superboy in Smallville just let that time be in the future.

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