Thoughts on new Shonen Rival inspired Character?

[J. D. Guy]

You're absolutely right. It feels like Tynion is trying to apply a concept without fully understanding what it means.

Bruce has more in common with Zuko than Aang.

Gary and Ash's rivalry was unusual, it's more a product of memes and fan bias than the anime's actual reality. Ash saw Gary as someone he had to overcome and Gary never took Ash seriously until their last battle, but looking back on things,Ash was ALWAYS the better trainer than Gary. Gary's only real advantage was stronger Pokemon, he was basically the dude with great potential who never lived up to the hype.

Harry and Draco was a legitimate rivalry.

Ash in Indigo, as a trainer seeking to compete in a Pokemon League Tournament, was... He wasn't really good. He tended to rely on luck and fortuitous circumstances (which isn't bad in and of itself, mind you, but comes off ill in consort with his other flaws as a competitive trainer and person during that time frame). He wasn't really invested in bettering his Pokemon's battle prowess and skills, coasting on their innate, baseline capabilities. And Ash's lack of diligence in Indigo is made clear, too. What Ash excelled at over Gary was his more empathetic bond and approach to being with and interacting with most of his Pokemon. (And even then, Ash wasn't at his peak in that regard during Indigo.)

Even if Gary was full of himself in Indigo (which was another of Indigo!Ash's flaws, too), he was still a better League competition Pokemon Trainer than Ash was during Indigo.

That said, I can concur that the louder segments of the Pokemon Anime fandom's tendencies to overplay the Ash and Gary rivalry is a thing. They also overplay Paul, too, albeit for different reasons, but Paul is another can of worms as far as I'm concerned. One I don't feel like opening.

[J. D. Guy]

Bruce doesn't suit Shonen? uhmmmm are we reading the same character? Batman is the perfect franchise for Shonen shenanigans, I mean he's spawned at least 4 different anime protagonist (5 if you squint reeeeeal hard at Dick). However, I don't think the Shonen rivalry trope works as well for Bruce's character at this point in his career; at least it feels a bit jarring with a newly created character. I think if they wanted to go that route it would've worked more organically if it were Hush or something. in the otherhand, I'm always a proponent for new characters, so we'll see. it's an interesting concept to explore but I would've preferred if it were used for one of the other batfam members tbh. y'all already know my choice: give it to Duke baby! make him the anime bat-character, he already has the Sharingan

Agreed! Duke was darn-near tailor made for a high-end, mature Shonen series. Freakin' take advantage of that, DC!

I mean, conceptually I can kind of understand the appeal of having a new, prominent, vigilante operating in Gotham who acts completely differently to Batman and company and seeing how that works.

As can I.

I know posters in this thread attest to Superman/Clark Kent being analogous to a Shonen rival, but while Clark's Superman is a foil to Bruce's Batman, I don't feel Clark constitutes being a Shonen rival to Bruce, even accounting for the different variations of Shonen Rivalry. As far as see it, Bruce doesn't really have that. He has heroic and villainous and antagonistic foils to him, but not rivals or rivalries.

So an honest to goodness Shonen-styled rival to Bruce's Batman in the form of a Superhero/Vigilante who has their own network and peer-group/hero family would be a genuinely interesting dynamic to explore multiple longform stories with. They would need to go about exploring such stories in an earnest, fearless, unapologetic way, though. No takebacksies or "Psyche!"s or anything like that.

[J. D. Guy]

Killua and Gon aren't rivals, they're bros.

Asta and Yuno are childhood friends and consider themselves rivals(and most fans do too), but I don't consider it a true rivalry. They're relationship lacks antagonism. That being said, Yuno is one of the better rivals in manga because he hasn't done anything monumentally stupid so far.

I feel like Batman is the wrong franchise to have a Shonen type storyline, though.

Not all rivalries have or need to have antagonism, though. That's a misconception I see all the time.

[king81992]

Ash in Indigo, as a trainer seeking to compete in a Pokemon League Tournament, was... He wasn't really good. He tended to rely on luck and fortuitous circumstances (which isn't bad in and of itself, mind you, but comes off ill in consort with his other flaws as a competitive trainer and person during that time frame). He wasn't really invested in bettering his Pokemon's battle prowess and skills, coasting on their innate, baseline capabilities. And Ash's lack of diligence in Indigo is made clear, too. What Ash excelled at over Gary was his more empathetic bond and approach to being with and interacting with most of his Pokemon. (And even then, Ash wasn't at his peak in that regard during Indigo.)

Even if Gary was full of himself in Indigo (which was another of Indigo!Ash's flaws, too), he was still a better League competition Pokemon Trainer than Ash was during Indigo.

That said, I can concur that the louder segments of the Pokemon Anime fandom's tendencies to overplay the Ash and Gary rivalry is a thing. They also overplay Paul, too, albeit for different reasons, but Paul is another can of worms as far as I'm concerned. One I don't feel like opening.

Was Gary really a better league competitor at Indigo? Ash for all his flaws did go farther in that tournament than Gary, though his elimination was a lot more humiliating.

I understand exactly where you're coming from with Paul, like many comic book characters he gets too much of a free pass from fans and possibly writers(considering Cynthia is comments in the anime about his " training methods")for all the things he did.

[batnbreakfast]

Why should Tynion succeed where Gotham Academy failed? That was a great series and it didn't have the numbers.

[J. D. Guy]

Was Gary really a better league competitor at Indigo? Ash for all his flaws did go farther in that tournament than Gary, though his elimination was a lot more humiliating.

I understand exactly where you're coming from with Paul, like many comic book characters he gets too much of a free pass from fans and possibly writers(considering Cynthia is comments in the anime about his " training methods")for all the things he did.

Regarding Ash and Gary, I don't know. I still feel that Gary had it more on the ball than Ash at that point, even if he still proved to be out of his depth at that point (like Ash). Ash got further, but was also more fortunate in his matchups up until the Top 16. And I'd say that Ash's loss being more humiliating reflected that. Gary's loss was humbling, but again, Ash's was downright humiliating.

And yeah, don't get me started on Paul, his fans, and what they have collectively done, in many respects, to the general Pokemon Anime fandom. You are right that Paul's character is very reminiscent to certain comic book characters who are decidedly problematic, from inception down to execution, but who have fans that'll stick up for them no matter what, even to the detriment of giving proper reads to the story at hand or the other characters who get bashed for the sake of upholding their favorite character. The head writer at the time, Tomioka, having Cynthia and friggin' Brock apologize and rationalize Paul's behavior in the same world that condemns such bad actions was really too much of "The Writer On Board". I mean, Brock, who was willing to pick a fight with Damien in Indigo for belittling and abandoning his old Charmander, sticking up for Paul? Give me a break.

[Nite-Wing]

Tynion thought he was doing something original but Bruce has a huge list of childhood friends,brothers,etc
This is just another one with a shonen paint job so don't expect anything good

lready showing signs he doesn't really care about Bruce and is adding tropes to make him more palatable as a character
sad

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I don't mind if Tynion uses Ghostmaker to deconstruct the shonen rival trope. I believe that would Batman better than just playing it straight.

I think Talia is the closest analogue to Azula we have in the Bat-canon.

I actually overlooked Jotaro as a Batman analogue- my bad.

[Frontier]

I've come to accept that most romances in anime, manga, comics and cartoons are doomed to be poorly handled. All things considered, I thought that NaruHina was handled well considering the genre. The less we say about Sasuke and Sakura's relationship, the better. For all the things the Boruto anime has done right(worldbuilding, developing the supporting cast, establishing concepts that become relevant in the manga), its failed to sell me( or anyone else) on Sakura and Sasuke's 'marriage'. Every other couple that was established in Naruto feels like husband and wife, even the random ones like Choji/Karui and Sai/Ino, yet Sakura and Sasuke's dynamic is so awkward.

It depends what genre and series you're viewing in my opinion.

Tynion thought he was doing something original but Bruce has a huge list of childhood friends,brothers,etc
This is just another one with a shonen paint job so don't expect anything good

lready showing signs he doesn't really care about Bruce and is adding tropes to make him more palatable as a character
sad

I think Tynion likes really challenging Bruce rather than just not caring.

But it does feel like he's really trying to make a lot of these "hit" characters while he's been on the title.

[Restingvoice]

I can't imagine Bruce having a shonen rival simply because he to me IS the shonen rival. He's the broody, almost perfect guy who can do a lot of things, even while training he's very talented and learned quickly, he's the one who's laser-focused on a goal and the one other people look up to, aim to, or jealous of.
I'm having trouble coming up with someone that Bruce looks up to, aim to, or jealous of, besides Clark.
So I guess that's why he wants to create one.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think Green Arrow or Mister Terrific could work as a lighter shonen rival. If you want a darker one you have The Question or John Constantine(Ambrose Pierce/Willoughby Kipling also works if John is unavailable).

Bruce is hard to give a rival to because he's supposed to be good at everything. So exploiting the few weakness he would have like Magic would be a way to give him a legitimate rival.

[Mutant God]

Even in the comics, Bruce is similar to Zuko: means well(most of the time) and makes bad decisions, Iroh and Alfred were elderly men who gave good advice to their ward( heck, they even share a fondness of tea) and got the crap beaten out of them by their crazy fathers.

The biggest difference between Bruce and Zuko is that Zuko has powers and Azula. Someone once told me that Bruce's Azula equivalent is Joker, but I strongly disagree.

Bruce's father never beaten him?

I don't mind if Tynion uses Ghostmaker to deconstruct the shonen rival trope. I believe that would Batman better than just playing it straight.

I think Talia is the closest analogue to Azula we have in the Bat-canon.

I actually overlooked Jotaro as a Batman analogue- my bad.

While Ras is a good counterpart to Ozai, Talia is bit of a weird connection what with being a love interest...unless were now comparing Zuko to Nyssa al-Ghul which I guess makes Bruce Aang and Catwoman is Katara lol

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Bruce's father never beaten him?



While Ras is a good counterpart to Ozai, Talia is bit of a weird connection what with being a love interest...unless were now comparing Zuko to Nyssa al-Ghul which I guess makes Bruce Aang and Catwoman is Katara lol

It's meant to be more a vibe than an exact one to one.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Why should Tynion succeed where Gotham Academy failed? That was a great series and it didn't have the numbers.

Gotham Academy was more like Riverdale and other CW Teen Dramas than an actual shonen type series.

Closest comic that has come to shonen in recent years is Marvel's swordmaster.

[OopsIdiditagain]

I can't imagine Bruce having a shonen rival simply because he to me IS the shonen rival. He's the broody, almost perfect guy who can do a lot of things, even while training he's very talented and learned quickly, he's the one who's laser-focused on a goal and the one other people look up to, aim to, or jealous of.
I'm having trouble coming up with someone that Bruce looks up to, aim to, or jealous of, besides Clark.
So I guess that's why he wants to create one.

But there have been broody prodigy shonen MCs with rivals: