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  1. #1
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Default Thoughts on new Shonen Rival inspired Character?



    James Tynion:
    "I remember, a few years back, right when I had first gotten wind of the creation of the Middle Grade and YA lines that DC Comics was developing… I approached the editor in charge of the program with an idea. I wanted to do a book with the energy of a Shonen Manga, that told the story of Bruce Wayne travelling the world and training to be the world's greatest crime-fighter… I don't think I ever wrote up a pitch document, but I do remember laying out the core cast in a notebook. There was a cowardly thief style character, a young woman who may or may not have escaped from Themyscira, but the character that had really instigated the whole idea was Bruce's Rival. The key to that idea was to create a Zuko to Bruce's Aang. The Gary Oak to his Ash Ketchum. The Draco Malfoy to his Harry Potter.

    I'll be blunt. My initial ideas for that character were pretty basic. The rough concept I had played around with in the Shonen series pitch was that young Bruce was a bit of a scamp, more of a Robin type character, so his rival would be the more serious type. But that dynamic wouldn't work in the present. He needed to be something more. He needed to be a fascinating inverted mirror to Batman… And he needed some flair. And a name"

    I'm neutral. Shonen rivals dynamic can either be great:


    Or downright annoying:


    Apparently marvel already has an edgy japanese inspired Rival with same name too.

  2. #2
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Isn't Superman kind of Bruce's rival? At least in some sense.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    How many childhood friends and friends turn evil plus dark counterparts this guy's gonna have?!
    I mean I guess a shonen rival's kinda new since even all of those aren't shonen rival. The closest thing he got during training years is Morgan Ducard.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post


    James Tynion:
    "I remember, a few years back, right when I had first gotten wind of the creation of the Middle Grade and YA lines that DC Comics was developing… I approached the editor in charge of the program with an idea. I wanted to do a book with the energy of a Shonen Manga, that told the story of Bruce Wayne travelling the world and training to be the world's greatest crime-fighter… I don't think I ever wrote up a pitch document, but I do remember laying out the core cast in a notebook. There was a cowardly thief style character, a young woman who may or may not have escaped from Themyscira, but the character that had really instigated the whole idea was Bruce's Rival. The key to that idea was to create a Zuko to Bruce's Aang. The Gary Oak to his Ash Ketchum. The Draco Malfoy to his Harry Potter.

    I'll be blunt. My initial ideas for that character were pretty basic. The rough concept I had played around with in the Shonen series pitch was that young Bruce was a bit of a scamp, more of a Robin type character, so his rival would be the more serious type. But that dynamic wouldn't work in the present. He needed to be something more. He needed to be a fascinating inverted mirror to Batman… And he needed some flair. And a name"

    I'm neutral. Shonen rivals dynamic can either be great:


    Or downright annoying:


    Apparently marvel already has an edgy japanese inspired Rival with same name too.
    Right now I'm more into the new characters of Tynion's run than the old faces. If there is a Clownhunter or Ghostmaker solo I'd buy it till it gets canceled at issue 8.

    I disagree with his analogy because Bruce is Zuko not Aang. Pattinson's take reminds me more of Kurapika from Hunter x Hunter. I think the only other shonen protagonist he'd remind me of Is Ichigo from BLEACH!.

    So giving him a darker more cerebral rival feels weird or wrong to me. There is a reason why he fights an evil clown guys.

    He needs someone like Zaheer from Legend of Korra. So making GhostMaker someone with charisma and a spiritual side would be for the best.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Isn't Superman kind of Bruce's rival? At least in some sense.
    I agree with this, Superman is the cheerful protagonist and Batman is the dark/cynical rival
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  6. #6
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Isn't Superman kind of Bruce's rival? At least in some sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    I agree with this, Superman is the cheerful protagonist and Batman is the dark/cynical rival
    If it was a shonen Superman would be the character that was always an ally/friend from the beginning like Al from full metal alchemist, Zoro from One Piece or Chad from Bleach

  7. #7
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Right now I'm more into the new characters of Tynion's run than the old faces. If there is a Clownhunter or Ghostmaker solo I'd buy it till it gets canceled at issue 8.

    I disagree with his analogy because Bruce is Zuko not Aang. Pattinson's take reminds me more of Kurapika from Hunter x Hunter. I think the only other shonen protagonist he'd remind me of Is Ichigo from BLEACH!.

    So giving him a darker more cerebral rival feels weird or wrong to me. There is a reason why he fights an evil clown guys.

    He needs someone like Zaheer from Legend of Korra. So making GhostMaker someone with charisma and a spiritual side would be for the best.

    That makes sense. Edward from FMA is how imagine young Bruce would be like.

  8. #8
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    How many childhood friends and friends turn evil plus dark counterparts this guy's gonna have?!
    I mean I guess a shonen rival's kinda new since even all of those aren't shonen rival. The closest thing he got during training years is Morgan Ducard.
    Don't forget he apparently met Harvey Dent as a kid now.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    That makes sense. Edward from FMA is how imagine young Bruce would be like.
    I forgot about Ed actually. He was one of my faves back in the day. I could see a young Bruce being like Ed but i don't believe it 100%.

    It would be weird to read Bruce as a Robin like scamp but i kinda want to now. I'm guessing we might have more scenes with young Bruce now. Hopefully the cowardly thief character he mentioned pops up.

    I think a good shonen rival for Bruce would be Ethan Bennet from the 2000s Batman cartoon. Or even Diggle from the Arrow show.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 09-12-2020 at 01:03 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post


    James Tynion:
    "I remember, a few years back, right when I had first gotten wind of the creation of the Middle Grade and YA lines that DC Comics was developing… I approached the editor in charge of the program with an idea. I wanted to do a book with the energy of a Shonen Manga, that told the story of Bruce Wayne travelling the world and training to be the world's greatest crime-fighter… I don't think I ever wrote up a pitch document, but I do remember laying out the core cast in a notebook. There was a cowardly thief style character, a young woman who may or may not have escaped from Themyscira, but the character that had really instigated the whole idea was Bruce's Rival. The key to that idea was to create a Zuko to Bruce's Aang. The Gary Oak to his Ash Ketchum. The Draco Malfoy to his Harry Potter.

    I'll be blunt. My initial ideas for that character were pretty basic. The rough concept I had played around with in the Shonen series pitch was that young Bruce was a bit of a scamp, more of a Robin type character, so his rival would be the more serious type. But that dynamic wouldn't work in the present. He needed to be something more. He needed to be a fascinating inverted mirror to Batman… And he needed some flair. And a name"

    I'm neutral. Shonen rivals dynamic can either be great:


    Or downright annoying:


    Apparently marvel already has an edgy japanese inspired Rival with same name too.
    Killua and Gon aren't rivals, they're bros.

    Asta and Yuno are childhood friends and consider themselves rivals(and most fans do too), but I don't consider it a true rivalry. They're relationship lacks antagonism. That being said, Yuno is one of the better rivals in manga because he hasn't done anything monumentally stupid so far.

    I feel like Batman is the wrong franchise to have a Shonen type storyline, though.

  11. #11
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Killua and Gon aren't rivals, they're bros.

    Asta and Yuno are childhood friends and consider themselves rivals(and most fans do too), but I don't consider it a true rivalry. They're relationship lacks antagonism. That being said, Yuno is one of the better rivals in manga because he hasn't done anything monumentally stupid so far.

    I feel like Batman is the wrong franchise to have a Shonen type storyline, though.

    Most rivals are/were bros. Sasuke and Naruto started out as bros. Vegeta and Goku are bros.

    Which character/franchise would you add a shonen storyline to? I feel like either Damian, Jason Todd or Cass would fit the shonen genre well.

    Outside of the batfamily, Blue Beetle, Sideways or Naomi.
    OP characters make me itch

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Right now I'm more into the new characters of Tynion's run than the old faces. If there is a Clownhunter or Ghostmaker solo I'd buy it till it gets canceled at issue 8.

    I disagree with his analogy because Bruce is Zuko not Aang. Pattinson's take reminds me more of Kurapika from Hunter x Hunter. I think the only other shonen protagonist he'd remind me of Is Ichigo from BLEACH!.

    So giving him a darker more cerebral rival feels weird or wrong to me. There is a reason why he fights an evil clown guys.

    He needs someone like Zaheer from Legend of Korra. So making GhostMaker someone with charisma and a spiritual side would be for the best.
    You apologize to Zuko!

    Bruce is Azula.

  13. #13
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I mean....his design is cool. But doesn't this all feel kinda...done before? Isn't this what Superman kind of is already? He's the Ichigo to his Uryu. The Naruto to his Sasuke (well...post-series Sasuke, anyway). The Deku to his Bakugou. Hell their kids even keep it going by essentially being Gon and Killua.

    Bruce already represents the darker side of being a hero. Any shounen foil to him would either be his opposite (Superman) or someone who's even darker (Red Hood, Bane, and Deathstroke). If the latter's where they're going then doesn't he stop being a rival and just becomes another villain?

    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    The key to that idea was to create a Zuko to Bruce's Aang. The Gary Oak to his Ash Ketchum. The Draco Malfoy to his Harry Potter.
    Er...Those are all three TOTALLY different relationships. And I'd only call one a straight up rivalry. So I'm even more confused about what the goal is for this guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Killua and Gon aren't rivals, they're bros.
    One could argue that they're friendly rivals when it comes to their nen training. Especially in the Greed Island arc.
    Last edited by Blue22; 09-12-2020 at 04:11 PM.

  14. #14
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    I'd like to see this.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Yeah, Batman doesn't really feel like a good fit for shounen as he is too old and experienced. Shounen really focus on younger characters or teens where you get to see their growth over the course of the series. Batman is already at the apex so he can't really grow. Maybe a young Bruce Wayne would fit like what was originally pitched by Tynion, but then you lose out on a lot of the iconic Batman elements that came after he was already Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Which character/franchise would you add a shonen storyline to? I feel like either Damian, Jason Todd or Cass would fit the shonen genre well.
    Robin is the most obvious character/franchise to use. Since he is DC's most iconic young hero and using him as a gateway into the DCU feels obvious. Plus you also get to use the Batman franchise with him. I don't think Jason or Damian fit the mold for the traditional shounen main character, so Dick is probably the closest to the shounen MC archetype with how he is much more optimistic and personable. Tim probably fits that too. His original 90s Robin book had some elements of this.

    But with Robin you just have them be 15/16 and operating with Batman while also going to Gotham Academy where they have to balance a school life and a superhero life. Also at the school you can introduce characters like Barbara who will become Batgirl eventually and that sets up a lot of storylines. Then you can expand their influence more to include other young heroes like Wally and Roy, and even eventually use the New Teen Titans characters in Raven, Cyborg, Starfire and so on with Robin acting as the linchpin holding all these things together.

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