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  1. #61
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    To be clear, a retcon stands for "retroactive convention," the key facet of a retcon is that it changes something about a part of the story that has already happened or the fictional world's history and asserts that it had always been that way.

    There's a fine line to be argued within that about say, revelations over someone's past as a part of the story versus the same as retcon. It could be argued that Naruto being the son of the Fourth was a bit of a retcon as his treatment by the village growing up doesn't really track with him being a person of significant status, Jinchuriki notwithstanding.

    However, not all bad writing is a retcon and not all retcons are bad writing.

    Goku's characterisation and continuing decreasing intelligence in Super? Not a retcon, just bad writing.

    The introduction of evolved Sharingan and elemental weaknesses into jutsu in Naruto? Again, not a retcon, revelation of new information that changed the story going forward but, critically, not backward.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 09-23-2020 at 12:24 AM.
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Speaking of Frieza, while I generally like how they handled him in Super, I am still somewhat annoyed that this now means that DB villains no longer get their memories erased and then reincarnated (after a year in Hell, IIRC), which was what Vegeta was facing when he died during the Buu Saga, especially since we know that Kid Buu got reincarnated in that kind of fashion, what with Uubu existing.
    Pretty sure that was only due to Goku making the request to Yemma, not something that regularly happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    have to agree to disagree. That whole setup flew in the face what the Amazons had stood for going back decades. They're pirate rapists in the New52. Bad enough DC had them do Amazons Attack in pre-New52, but then went along with this.
    That was the point of the revelation. To turn everything about the Amazons upside down. And them using men to make children and getting rid of male infants is exactly what was in the original myth
    https://www.ancient.eu/amazon/

    So this retcon was more "mythologically accurate" and arguably more interesting(imo) than what the Amazons in DC were originally than simply being all women due to godly intervention.
    Last edited by Cody; 09-23-2020 at 06:05 AM.
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.
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  3. #63
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    But comics do not need mythology truth.

    Hell there are three Amazon myths. DC invented a new one, made it refreshing.

    Another example: Thor. Thor in Marvel Mythos is REALlY off material.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chou Lives View Post
    But comics do not need mythology truth.

    Hell there are three Amazon myths. DC invented a new one, made it refreshing.

    Another example: Thor. Thor in Marvel Mythos is REALlY off material.
    Yeah but in this way it makes the Amazons more entertaining not simply pure spirited fighters who are almost as xenophobic towards anyone who isn't them.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Physically grabbing an released Black Hole to stop it is like throwing a sandwich at Galactus to stop him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.
    Saint Seiya Online:
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  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    To be clear, a retcon stands for "retroactive convention," the key facet of a retcon is that it changes something about a part of the story that has already happened or the fictional world's history and asserts that it had always been that way.

    There's a fine line to be argued within that about say, revelations over someone's past as a part of the story versus the same as retcon. It could be argued that Naruto being the son of the Fourth was a bit of a retcon as his treatment by the village growing up doesn't really track with him being a person of significant status, Jinchuriki notwithstanding.

    However, not all bad writing is a retcon and not all retcons are bad writing.

    Goku's characterisation and continuing decreasing intelligence in Super? Not a retcon, just bad writing.

    The introduction of evolved Sharingan and elemental weaknesses into jutsu in Naruto? Again, not a retcon, revelation of new information that changed the story going forward but, critically, not backward.
    Technically speaking, as Dragon Ball Super takes place in the period between the Buu Saga and the Epilogue chapter of DBZ, Goku's change in characterization does probably retcon his intelligence from the epilogue of DBZ (only probably since Goku admittedly doesn't really do anything especially smart or dumb in that chapter, to my recollection).

    Regarding the Sharingan I'll concede that note since I wasn't really certain if that should count in any case, but the revelation of the chakra affinities being basic and extremely vital knowledge (that was never mentioned in all the previous arcs) which Jiraiya taught his previous 4 students, but which Naruto never even heard about until Sakura explained it to him after he had finished his own training under Jiraiya does retcon Jiraiya into apparently being really dumb during those 3 years where he was teaching Naruto exclusively.

  6. #66
    Incredible Member TerryAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chou Lives View Post
    DC tries to reboot to be dramatic in destroying and rebuilding everything.

    The Marvel approach for a while was “ if a story does good enough but diversion from source? Make it in a AU.” And therefore a Marvel has the bigger multiverse.

    The Second Secret Wars did way more damage and it was still being rebuilt as Reed/Franklin rebooting all that stuff or something?

    Point is this is why manga is supreme to comics. In my opinion of this aspect.

    Eh.Long running manga franchises have this problem too (Stares at Devilman, Cyborg 009, Captain Harlock, Astro Boy, and Tenchi Muyo)
    There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload.".

    I like to think the 90s was the time when comics hit puberty. They’d grown out of being endearing but hadn’t yet figured out where to channel their emotions to not be utterly whiny cocks. -Beadle

  7. #67
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryAce View Post
    Eh.Long running manga franchises have this problem too (Stares at Devilman, Cyborg 009, Captain Harlock, Astro Boy, and Tenchi Muyo)
    Being a fan of Harlock and Devil Man in their defense:

    Devils Man it is shown that God purposely destroys and remakes the universe to make Satan suffer. It is a retcon reboot but it legitimately makes sense to show what a truly unbeatable, uncaring being can do ( while in DC it is some random or overt blown type that decides to wreck shit)

    Harlock: It has been shown and confirmed there is no time line in his plots. Like Conan the Barbarian. Just say to day adventures of a bad ass.

    Not a fan but know:

    Tenchi Muyo is literally a multiverse, each different series is in another parallel verse. So no real re writing.

    Hell a show I like on that dynamic is Getter Robo. That has been shown to be a multiverse

    As for the rest: No idea.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    To be clear, a retcon stands for "retroactive convention," the key facet of a retcon is that it changes something about a part of the story that has already happened or the fictional world's history and asserts that it had always been that way.

    There's a fine line to be argued within that about say, revelations over someone's past as a part of the story versus the same as retcon. It could be argued that Naruto being the son of the Fourth was a bit of a retcon as his treatment by the village growing up doesn't really track with him being a person of significant status, Jinchuriki notwithstanding.

    However, not all bad writing is a retcon and not all retcons are bad writing.

    Goku's characterisation and continuing decreasing intelligence in Super? Not a retcon, just bad writing.
    Yeah, you're right. In my defense though, I didn't say Goku in Super was a retcon. I just wanted to complain about Goku in Super!

  9. #69
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Yeah, you're right. In my defense though, I didn't say Goku in Super was a retcon. I just wanted to complain about Goku in Super!
    That's fair. There's a lot to complain about in Super.
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  10. #70

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    any Superpowered Beings that aren't strictly Pokemon in (current) Pokemon anime

    this including even Ash's aura powers
    whatever Scientists tells us what they believes are the only things that exists in Reality(our world), they treats what US government and mainstream news media said about things like 9/11, CO2 Emissions, and so on as their gospel

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  11. #71
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chou Lives View Post
    Being a fan of Harlock and Devil Man in their defense:

    Devils Man it is shown that God purposely destroys and remakes the universe to make Satan suffer. It is a retcon reboot but it legitimately makes sense to show what a truly unbeatable, uncaring being can do ( while in DC it is some random or overt blown type that decides to wreck shit)

    Harlock: It has been shown and confirmed there is no time line in his plots. Like Conan the Barbarian. Just say to day adventures of a bad ass.

    Not a fan but know:

    Tenchi Muyo is literally a multiverse, each different series is in another parallel verse. So no real re writing.

    Hell a show I like on that dynamic is Getter Robo. That has been shown to be a multiverse

    As for the rest: No idea.
    Cyborg 009 and Astro Boy don't have retcons; Just AUs or Alternate Re-Tellings that don't impact the original continuity.
    Ichigo: What even *are* you?!

    Kenpachi: Some say my mother was a train. Some say that I'm a rejected Godzilla monster too strong for the series canon. But everyone says: I'M THE KEEEEENPACHIIIIII!!!!

  12. #72
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Cyborg 009 and Astro Boy don't have retcons; Just AUs or Alternate Re-Tellings that don't impact the original continuity.
    Gotcha. Yeah and Devilmsn it’s more like a time loop. Satan lives on Akira, gets him killed, God makes him suffer and time reboot.

  13. #73
    Give me your SOUL! The Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Technically speaking, as Dragon Ball Super takes place in the period between the Buu Saga and the Epilogue chapter of DBZ, Goku's change in characterization does probably retcon his intelligence from the epilogue of DBZ (only probably since Goku admittedly doesn't really do anything especially smart or dumb in that chapter, to my recollection).

    Regarding the Sharingan I'll concede that note since I wasn't really certain if that should count in any case, but the revelation of the chakra affinities being basic and extremely vital knowledge (that was never mentioned in all the previous arcs) which Jiraiya taught his previous 4 students, but which Naruto never even heard about until Sakura explained it to him after he had finished his own training under Jiraiya does retcon Jiraiya into apparently being really dumb during those 3 years where he was teaching Naruto exclusively.
    Or about the fact that everything Kage Bunshin learn the user of the jutsu learns, which Naruto didn't learn until Kakashi told him after he had finished his training under Jiraiya. You'd think that if Kakashi knew that, Jiraiya would know it too.

    Really, everything Naruto learns after the training trip that Jiraiya really have taught him during their 3-year training trip retcons Jiraiya into a bad teacher, or at least he only half-assed his training of Naruto compared to his other students. And Naruto was revealed to being his godson, which kind of retcons Jiraiya into being neglectful of his duty as a godfather, considering the only reason he met and started training Naruto was by accidentally running into one another at the hotsprings during the time before the third round of the Chuunin exams.
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  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    In all fairness, Naruto himself should have noticed that he learned everything his clones knew when they disappeared since he used it so often, and even Kakashi didn't really think about using it for training due to the chakra intensity of it. But then again, Jiraiya was well aware of how crazy huge Naruto's chakra was, even without taking into account stuff like Kyuubi and Sage Mode, especially considering that the first thing he taught Naruto involved Naruto having to drain his basic chakra pool and then being able to draw upon the chakra of the Kyuubi.

    Also, I'm not really 100% on wanting to remove this retcon, but I do kinda wanna see a version of the series where there's no such thing as a "Tailed Beast" and that Kyuubi and Shukaku was just unique monsters that were unrelated to one another (like the Boss Summons, but on a significantly higher tier), just so that we hopefully get to either quietly nudge the whole Jyuubi/Kaguya thing into a literary black hole, or at least force Kishimoto to actually have to integrate them into the story better as their own thing. Like, and this is completely off the top of my head, maybe make Jyuubi be a new and essentially mindless creation that was based off of Kyuubi which Madara was planning to seal within himself to serve as a relatively unresisting super-battery, but was actually designed to act as the body for all the Zetsu to possess, revealing that they themselves were actually formed from Kaguya's soul that had escaped during her original sealing and shattered itself into pieces (basically something like the resolution of the Mouryoumaru arc of Inu Yasha being the revelation that Naraku had been trying to goad everyone into forcing his sentient weakpoint into making a super-powerful body to serve as its own fortress just so that Naraku could take it for his own final form once it got strong enough).

    Speaking of the Kishimoto family, I am really sad about how his brother's 666 Satan turned the titular Satan from a demon who was so fundamental to the cosmos that it was implied that he was the reason why their planet's (and possibly the axes of all planets? It's been awhile since I read the series) axis tilted 66.6 degrees, to revealing that he was just a scientist from another planet that was transformed into a monster that was unrelated to any basic porperties of the universe.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 09-24-2020 at 07:01 PM.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member TerryAce's Avatar
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    On my own personal hate list:

    I don;t like Ben 10 Omniverse retconning Kevin's plumber dad into false memories, as it cheapens one of Ultimate Alien's best episodes.
    There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload.".

    I like to think the 90s was the time when comics hit puberty. They’d grown out of being endearing but hadn’t yet figured out where to channel their emotions to not be utterly whiny cocks. -Beadle

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