Poll: Do you want Jon to survive the post-Bendis era?

[manwhohaseverything]

Deconstructions come various forms, including parodies. Even parodies can have serious storylines and scenes, like Judge Dredd. That's a parody/deconstruction of America's brutal justice system and how draconian its government. A key storyline was about Dredd finding the last US president, who started World War 3 who was a George W Bush parody - this was not a funny tale.



Superman is valuable to WB, he's just not their top performer any longer. The only person I know who dislikes "boy scout" super-heroes is Zach Snyder. Everyone else thinks that interpretation is bland, and this varies on the interpretation - Superman TAS is beloved.

Can you please explain what you mean by "white knight?" I've asked this previously and haven't gotten an answer.



Snyder's Superman is definitely a deconstruction, and an attempt to define Superman for a generation, it was just a failed attempt. Snyder's Superman evokes imagery blatantly to Superman, but except that's as far as it goes. He's also interprets Superman along the lines of the Greek gods and how detached he is from humanity - the latter is more about exploring Superman in depth rather than just sticking with imagery. Imagery by itself is not a deconstruction, it's about how the hero, supporting characters and the villains act.



That's an unkind view of Superman, that's the parody people view him as who hate the character. It's like how Aquaman was defined negative in pop culture by Super Friends as the useless guy who talekd to fish. The very same person who bench presses Deathstroke like nothing.

Sure, did i say otherwise? But, parodies generally have characteristics of exaggeration. Deconstruction generally have have the characteristic of examination.sure both can coincide. Things like injustice doesn't examine superman at all. It makes a mockery out of him through the perception of outsiders. That's just a parody. Not even a good one.

Not only that, the show itself says superman isn't much of a boyscout. What are you on about?Even timm admitted he doesn't get superman like he does batman.

Have you watched the darkknight? Harvey dent. The guy that seemingly nice, but ain't in reality. He plays role of a nice guy so that society can view him as one. He wants a price for being a decent human being. Superman has never played the nice guy before. He was really genuinely a nice guy. Also, a dashing, debonair, confident and charismatic individual . But, through some bad nonsense portrayal the perception of the character is different.

Mate, donner did the same. He was actually the one who started or popularised the comparison of superman and christ. The knight thing also came from him. So how did donner not deconstruct, while snyder did? Heck! Superman returns started with "the world doesn't need a Superman". That's a blatant attempt at deconstruction and reconstruction.

Sure,i agree with you. But, Pardon me . But here is the kicker, except you have the perception you speak of(atleast that's what i get from your posts) . You seem to have this perception that superman is a nice guy who doesn't have flaws, issues... Etc. When his publication history speaks for itself.As said, in reality superman isn't that nice. Superman tas itself says it.

Moreover, The idiot is different. I am taking your view and perspective that superman is actually that nice of a guy like the kid billy batson. So it's making a case for christ like good guy human superman . It actually, makes the case that people like modern Superman are too good for society to understand or comprehend. The world doesn't deserve a hero like clark. But, it will always have it.

[CPSparkles]

Yes and Ideally I want him deaged

[Vordan]

Injustice, boys, ss.. Etc aren't deconstructions. They are mere parodies or something meant to say the concept of a superhero or superman is only as good as one bad day or some it's laughable from the get go. It's mocking the concept itself. It's not trying to weigh the claims made by the superman story all its pros and cons. Red son might be deconstruction. One punch man isn't a deconstruction. It's also a parody of superheroes, manga protagonists.. Etc. One punch man even asserts the value of the superhero. So, it's laughing with us and concept itself not at us.That might be why that's fun. Others aren't fun for the superhero audiences.By your logic one punch man would be deconstruction .The watchmen is another deconstruction.

Those other takes exist because superman isn't valuable to wb as a hero that batman is.And also fundamentally people see a white knight in superman now a days. There is a pattern that links white knights to two face these days.

This is for romantic stories. But, as the video says "Authenticity matter. It separates real nice guys from the fake ones ". Many a times clark comes of as fake. It's due to some bad portrayals like the justice league movie, dark knight returns, injustice ... Etc. So the guy gets turned into two-face like harvey dent.

On the flip side, Snyder's superman is a deconstruction in that he has his own vision for a superman like byrne, donner... Etc.That's it. Sure, you may not like what he does. Personally,think the character is boring and not much of a swashbuckling do-gooder . But, calling it a deconstruction is a bit much.
All i am saying is that it's not as if i want to pick apart superman. But, there is pattern for people to pick him apart. That's it. Moreover, if i do want some deconstruction it would be something like dostoevsky's works.That generally tells the value of clark as christ figure.But,it does it in a way that's tangible like the grand inquisitor, the idiot.. Etc

I view modern superman like the idiot(its not derogatory)

I’m going to take you off ignore for a second. I put you on ignore because I find your “Superman should be like my favorite anime!” takes to be dumb and I couldn’t stand to read them anymore. But this time what you posted was odd enough that I can’t ignore it.
1. You clearly don’t get what deconstructions are so let me define the term: deconstruction means to take apart a trope in a way that exposes its inherent contradictions, often by exploring the difference between how the trope appears in this one work and how it compares to other relevant tropes or ideas both in fiction and Real Life. The DCEU is very much a deconstruction or at least an attempt at one. Snyder’s an awful storyteller so he completely botched it, but Man of Steel is an attempt at a deconstruction. It asks the question “what if Superman was real?” and then shows why the “normal” Superman story wouldn’t work in the real world. In the real world the superhumans fighting obliterates an entire city, killing millions. The general public hate and fear Superman instead of loving him as is the status quo in the comics. The colors are all grey and blue and black to make it more “realistic”. Ma and Pa Kent are selfish hick fearmongers who teach Clark to look out for number 1 and hide his gifts from the world, instead of teaching him that he needs to use his powers for good.

Injustice is another deconstruction, asking what would happen if Superman failed to save the day unlike normal. Everyone dies and he goes insane. Again Injustice is incredibly stupid but it deconstructs Superman by showcasing him as mentally weak and unable to handle failure, because he just wouldn’t be prepared to endure that kind of loss unlike Batman. That’s not the same as Byrne or Donner.

Byrne wasn’t asking “what if Superman was real?” he was asking “how do I make Superman cool?” and Donner was just loosely adapting the Golden Age/Silver Age comics he read as a child. The DCEU and Injustice are deconstructions because they are specifically about showcasing how “unrealistic” aspects of the Superman story are.

2. Wonder Woman and Captain America were huge successes. Shazam was a success as well. That idea that Superman type morally upright heroes don’t sell is stupid for that alone. Hell one of the most common complaints about Cavill is that he feels edgy and doesn’t even seem to like saving people. People like morally good characters, this isn’t the 90s, people hated Batffleck killing and Batman is one of the darker heroes.

3. Why do you spend so much time on a forum for a character you don’t even seem to like? You like Jon because he’s a generic shouen protagonist I get that, but you don’t seem to like Clark at all. You’ve got the freedom to do what you want of course but it seems like a waste of time.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Sure, did i say otherwise? But, parodies generally have characteristics of exaggeration. Deconstruction generally have have the characteristic of examination.sure both can coincide. Things like injustice doesn't examine superman at all. It makes a mockery out of him through the perception of outsiders. That's just a parody. Not even a good one.

By separating parody from deconstruction, when they are both types of the same thing. Parodies are a form of deconstruction, but not all deconstruction are parodies. As shown in my Judge Dredd example. That gets exaggerated. It's very black humor.



But that's not all Dredd is. The second Dredd film played the premise straight.

Injustice examines the question of what if Superman became a tyrant? This has also been explored in the Justice Lords on Justice League TAS. It's a common trope in fiction, especially super-hero comic books.

Not only that, the show itself says superman isn't much of a boyscout. What are you on about?Even timm admitted he doesn't get superman like he does batman.

Superman TAS Superman is a contemporary update of Post-Crisis Superman in spirit. Where does the show say he's not a boy scout? TAS Superman only looks less like a boy scout compared to people like Timm-verse Captain Marvel, who is so pure he can do no wrong. It’s why I like their fight in “The Clash” – it shows Superman makes mistakes and get hot headed sometimes. It made Superman feel more human and flawed, without breaking the character they built up. There’s more to Superman than simply being the perfect “white knight” boy scout with no flaws and an anti-hero who’s the super-hero equivalent to the loose canon on the police force.

Have you watched the darkknight? Harvey dent. The guy that seemingly nice, but ain't in reality. He plays role of a nice guy so that society can view him as one. He wants a price for being a decent human being. Superman has never played the nice guy before. He was really genuinely a nice guy. Also, a dashing, debonair, confident and charismatic individual . But, through some bad nonsense portrayal the perception of the character is different.

Thank you for explaining. Yes, I've seen the Dark Knight. However, I disagree with you about Dent. Dent's person was real he just wasn't perfect. He had major problems which were mostly under control, just like everyone else. Joker broke him because he outsmarted him, and broke his sense of reason by taking Rachel away. It's not because the rest of it was a lie, Joker made Dent break because of extreme circumstance to "prove" nobody is perfect and no-one is.

Mate, dooner did the same. He was actually the one who started or popularised the comparison of superman and christ. The knight thing also came from him. So how did donner not deconstruct, while snyder did? Heck! Superman returns started with "the world doesn't need a Superman". That's a blatant attempt at deconstruction and reconstruction.

Donner played Superman straight, unlike Snyder. Superman's been the "boy scout" from the 50's, if not earlier. All Donner did was make him fit naturally into the real world and change Kryptonian technology, he didn't create boy scout Superman whole cloth. Superman Returns didn't really deconstruct him, either. It asked the question of how Superman would fit into the world and he did it very easily. It wasn't what defined him in the movie, mainly his new relationship with Lois. The world accepted him again, no questions asked. Lois just fell out of love with him since she moved on, and he was horrible at explaining to her why he left. I'd say SR was a reconstruction, not a deconstruction.

Sure,i agree with you. But, Pardon me . But here is the kicker, except you have the perception you speak of(atleast that's what i get from your posts) . You seem to have this perception that superman is a nice guy who doesn't have flaws, issues... Etc. When his publication history speaks for itself.As said, in reality superman isn't that nice. Superman tas itself says it.

I think he's nice and can get along with people, not that he can't have flaws and is perfect. The latter is what makes certain versions of him boring. He needs to have his own internal issues to be human, and sympathetic. He shouldn't be above our human concerns since he is, at heart, a human with god-like powers not a god who looks like a human. His publication does speak for itself, and there's far more of it backing my perception of him. Superman TAS Superman is a great example of how Superman should be, in that he's a very kind and friendly man but who will break when pressed - and those are the exceptions, he's only taking out the break for people who can take his full powers and live, he's not lobotomising Lex with his heat vision because he can.

Moreover, The idiot is different. I am taking your view and perspective that superman is actually that nice of a guy like the kid billy batson. So it's making a case for christ like good guy human superman . It actually, makes the case that people like modern Superman are too good for society to understand or comprehend. The world doesn't deserve a hero like clark. But, it will always have it.

I don't think Superman is like Batson, Batson takes whatever good qualities Superman has and makes it far too sappy since he's absolutely perfect. This is why Neron wanted his soul in "Underworld Unleashed." Thankfully DC has moved away from that Batson over the years. Superman's nice and is genuine about it, but he's not perfect. He has doubts, he has worries, he should have flaws - Superman TAS did this properly where every movie version failed. Smallville did a good job by not making him perfect, as well.

[manwhohaseverything]

I’m going to take you off ignore for a second. I put you on ignore because I find your “Superman should be like my favorite anime!” takes to be dumb and I couldn’t stand to read them anymore. But this time what you posted was odd enough that I can’t ignore it.
1. You clearly don’t get what deconstructions are so let me define the term: deconstruction means to take apart a trope in a way that exposes its inherent contradictions, often by exploring the difference between how the trope appears in this one work and how it compares to other relevant tropes or ideas both in fiction and Real Life. The DCEU is very much a deconstruction or at least an attempt at one. Snyder’s an awful storyteller so he completely botched it, but Man of Steel is an attempt at a deconstruction. It asks the question “what if Superman was real?” and then shows why the “normal” Superman story wouldn’t work in the real world. In the real world the superhumans fighting obliterates an entire city, killing millions. The general public hate and fear Superman instead of loving him as is the status quo in the comics. The colors are all grey and blue and black to make it more “realistic”. Ma and Pa Kent are selfish hick fearmongers who teach Clark to look out for number 1 and hide his gifts from the world, instead of teaching him that he needs to use his powers for good.

Injustice is another deconstruction, asking what would happen if Superman failed to save the day unlike normal. Everyone dies and he goes insane. Again Injustice is incredibly stupid but it deconstructs Superman by showcasing him as mentally weak and unable to handle failure, because he just wouldn’t be prepared to endure that kind of loss unlike Batman. That’s not the same as Byrne or Donner.

Byrne wasn’t asking “what if Superman was real?” he was asking “how do I make Superman cool?” and Donner was just loosely adapting the Golden Age/Silver Age comics he read as a child. The DCEU and Injustice are deconstructions because they are specifically about showcasing how “unrealistic” aspects of the Superman story are.

That's fine.I don't particularly have a problem with someone not liking me. That sort of thing happens. I am pretty annoying. I am fine wiith people not liking me or what i say or me for that matter. They just have to tell me. I wouldn't bother them. You should have told straight up and i wouldn't have bothered you at all.I believe in being honest with people.
Realism comes whenever a subject matter needs to be made into live action. Many things just don't work in that framework.So they change stuff up.for instance, flying fight sequence in man of steel leaving a numb feeling while in dbz it works fine. It doesn't work cause the audiences are not able to understand the physics. Even shazam had that problem. Mcu chose smartly to never have that. Does that mean they are deconstructing the concept itself? Nope!. Why did he keep the dumb clark kent disguise with glasses and flying itself if he was going for realism(or appearance of) like nolan did with batman?no amount of explanation can make the clark kent disguise not absurd(it was never meant to be serious) . You would think superman in real world wouldn't fly. That means he was going for emotional realism. Everyone asks for emotional realism in these stories. We want to feel pathos for the main character. It's a different deal whether snyder was successful or not. I mean, there is a fair bit of emotional realism in for the man who has everything. It's an allegory. But, that doesn’t mean it can't have simulation of realistic emotions from characters that people can empathise with.

Finally, you don't find any exaggerations in what you just wrote about injustice when you compare that and the real superman as a character himself? If you don't, that's ok. you can believe it's a deconstruction. For me, it's a parody. Deconstruction requires some level of satirical analysis, subversions and counters of troupes, concepts, philosophy.. Etc. For instance, hxh is deconstruction of shounen genre,like watchmen is for superhero comics.

You think snyder wasn't asking "how to make superman cool?". His definition of cool is what you got. It might not be for you. But, that's his tastes being shown there.

2)nope!it ain't about being morally upright.Anyone who reads my posts know i love captain america movies and i am ok with ww as well. Captain america is willing to do whats right by appearing as bad guy enough for the world. I don't see that from clark that often. That dangerous side that comes from conviction, resolve..etc.

3)i am here because i like jon, young justice conner and new52 superman(thing that made me a regular reader) , goldenage superman, many of the silverage and bronze age stories . I just don't believe in the concept that humanity needs what appears to be a paragon of virtues to set them straight. If people are sick of me, that's fine. I will take my leave. If that's the general tone behind that question. I don't intend to cause annoyance. It just happens. I am sorry for any and all inconveniences.Have a good day.

[manwhohaseverything]

Superman TAS Superman is a contemporary update of Post-Crisis Superman in spirit.

Is he? He does "if lois dies, superman goes evil" shtick. There is also darkseid mind controlling thing that happened in tas. He was so mad he almost killed lex multiple times. He destroyed an entire city trying to beat up a kid(billy) who was actually doing the right thing,(cough! Cough! not trying to appear good for acceptance, i might add) . This guy made a name for himself being less of a boyscout.He is basically snyder superman before snyder superman became a thing.

[Journey]

No need to be rude everyone is free to express their own opinion and be on whatever forum they please. Chasing someone away cause you disagree with them seems poor form to say the least.

[mrjames21]

I am using the rhetoric which is DC One Million. Because in DC One Million, we don't see Jon and likewise in Legion, we don't see Jon too, but we see Supergirl, which came to me that Jon might have normal human lifespan, not the Clark and Kara situation where they aging but very slowly. Heck, even in Batman Beyond there is no Jon, while Damian of all people is in that comic.

So this must be non-cannon...
RCO016_1469304532.jpg

[Jackalope89]

So this must be non-cannon...
RCO016_1469304532.jpg

A lot of things from the New52 era were erased. And that panel happened before Rebirth Jon came around, I believe. Meaning it was the brief New52 version of Jon that doesn't seem to exist anymore.

[Laufeyson]

So this must be non-cannon...
RCO016_1469304532.jpg

The Future End's Beyond has been retconned for more closer to cartoon Beyond universe... So, yeah? I don't know after Rebirth, lines get blurry.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Is he? He does "if lois dies, superman goes evil" shtick. There is also darkseid mind controlling thing that happened in tas. He was so mad he almost killed lex multiple times. He destroyed an entire city trying to beat up a kid(billy) who was actually doing the right thing,(cough! Cough! not trying to appear good for acceptance, i might add) . This guy made a name for himself being less of a boyscout.He is basically snyder superman before snyder superman became a thing.

That was an alternate version, someone he saw as a nightmare version of himself. That Superman went over the edge where the main one didn't. What does Darkseid brainwashing Superman have to do with anything? Superman isn't doing that because he likes being a puppet of Darkseid. Context, it was jerk move for Superman to do and he knew nobody was living or working there - Snyder Superman could care less doing that in Metropolis itself. It was also an exception, TAS Superman was well liked by the DCU public and was very friendly with people just like in the comics. He didn't avoid talking to people or sulk by being misunderstood or speak a dozen lines in episodes. TAS Superman would be horrified over Snyder Superman. He cares, he's just ok occasionally prizing doing the right thing over the popular thing - which didn't include trying to murder Lex the first time they meet. TAS Superman is more like an adaption of Post-Crisis Superman than Snyder's.

[manwhohaseverything]

He didn't avoid talking to people or sulk by being misunderstood or speak a dozen lines in episodes.

Wow! What you are saying is that you hate introverts ?Yeah! I am straw-maning. Did you actually watch the ending of superman tas? Yeah! Superman was a pariah and he did fair amount of sulking as well. You know you are funny. You champion a superman that's basically same as Snyder's superman with only difference being that he seems to be an introvert with limited personnel connections . I would have understood championing something like the silverage superman as a guy who never ever kills. But, these tas superman? Nah! They are cut from same mold.

So what? Clark himself says he is basically the same dude as the other guy?he just didn't go over the edge because he got a warning and the other guy didn't. There were people covering the entire shindig. Clark could have easily killed a lot of people. Nah! Tas superman would be my man! is doing me proud. He would think "I left an awesome legacy" .

[Steel Inquisitor]

Wow! What you are saying is that you hate introverts ?Yeah! I am straw-maning. Did you actually watch the ending of superman tas? Yeah! Superman was a pariah and he did fair amount of sulking as well. You know you are funny. You champion a superman that's basically same as Snyder's superman with only difference being that he seems to be an introvert with limited personnel connections .

Snyder Superman isn't an introvert, introverts are able to make connections with people - he's more anti-social. Actors like Chris Evans are introverts.



TAS Superman was human, and he didn't go off the rails anywhere near what Snyder's did. He was smarter, used his connections to people, did more investigating in both identities and doesn't just talk to Lois and his mother. He has friends, allies and colleagues.

So what? Clark himself says he is basically the same dude as the other guy?he just didn't go over the edge because he got a warning and the other guy didn't. There were people covering the entire shindig. Clark could have easily killed a lot of people. Nah! Tas superman would be my man! is doing me proud. He would think "I left an awesome legacy" .

They're similar, not the same. TAS Superman doesn't look up to that Superman, that's a cautionary tale. TAS Superman had restraint, that Superman and Snyder's have big problems with that. And yet he didn't, because he knew how to use his powers without harming people. TAS Superman doesn't kill anyone, that's the point. TAS Superman is everything about Superman we've gone over that you've hated LOL

[Agent Z]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about Jon?

[manwhohaseverything]

Snyder Superman isn't an introvert, introverts are able to make connections with people - he's more anti-social. Actors like Chris Evans are introverts.



TAS Superman was human, and he didn't go off the rails anywhere near what Snyder's did. He was smarter, used his connections to people, did more investigating in both identities and doesn't just talk to Lois and his mother. He has friends, allies and colleagues.



They're similar, not the same. TAS Superman doesn't look up to that Superman, that's a cautionary tale. TAS Superman had restraint, that Superman and Snyder's have big problems with that. And yet he didn't, because he knew how to use his powers without harming people. TAS Superman doesn't kill anyone, that's the point. TAS Superman is everything about Superman we've gone over that you've hated LOL

Ok. So you think a person with social anxiety and a person who likes to generally avoid attention like that can't be superman? Is that what you are saying? Sounds to me like you hate clumsy clark kent persona, bruce wayne and many versions of peter parker.

Hmmm!If you say so. Because i don't see it. I mean, i didn't see man of steel superman scream "i am kal el the Kryptonian". He actually said, "krypton is dead". Which is what byrne superman did. The codec thing, keelex.. Etc there is a fair amount byrne superman in man of steel. Where do you think krypton being a dystopia cane from? . He even kills zod like the postcrisis superman did. The arc with Darkseid that happened in byrne run and tas was the one that may have happened in snyder movies. Finally, are you kidding me? Tas superman tells straight up to wally that he does have feelings like justice lord superman many of the time.you need to take a deeper look at what you are consuming. Cause, byrne superman is one of the supermen snyder superman is based on. Heck! More so. Snyder's whole thing was "superman needs to embrace humanity". Just watch any of his interviews.

Nope!tas superman would have gone of the rails if lois died. So much for having more connections.Finally i suggest, if you want to champion a paragon like superman who is extroverted, intelligent, who doesn't sulk much, doesn't kill, doesn't cause destruction, is generally more aimed at younger audiences. Then you should champion silverage superman. Sure, he has Superdickery but those were comedy (most of them). Just remove or revamp that aspect you would have your superman. Just remove the christ imagery from all star superman we have silverage superman . Postcrisis superman wouldn't be consistent with what you want from a superman. He is more like snyder superman. So is tas guy.