Poll: Do you want Jon to survive the post-Bendis era?

[manwhohaseverything]

Yeah DC makes it awfully hard to remain a Superman fan sometimes.

I can get down with most concepts if they're presented right though. Like Jon; I don't think Clark should have kids. At all. But I understand why Jon is viable from a business perspective and he *can* be a fun character. It's just that DC ignores Clark's personality and history to make him fit the story. Had DC done what Sacred suggested, and walked us through the pregnancy and Clark and Lois learning how to be good parents, then that would've been a solid, character defining/expanding arc and I'd likely have gotten behind it just like I support the marriage. Instead they threw Jon out there fully formed, and instead of showing us Clark growing as a person and learning how to be good with family, we just transition directly into the Rockwellian Americana crap that does not fit who Clark is, and fits only a flawed idea of who non-fans *think* he is.

It's always about the execution.

Except with the Kents. There's no reality out there where the Kents being alive in the present day is good for Superman.

On the contrary, they created jon to atleast give context to superman's paternalistic personality. Superman is a dad.That's what most people see him as. You can argue its perception and not reality. But, that's what is the general perception is.

[Laufeyson]

On the contrary, they created jon to atleast give context to superman's paternalistic personality. Superman is a dad.That's what most people see him as. You can argue its perception and not reality. But, that's what is the general perception is.

I don't think Superman as a dad is what most people see him as. I think people see him as this OP character that has characterized as bland as white paint dry, because of the Superman TAS, and the JL portray him as the boyscout character. I believe the Superman as dad character came to attention because it's so weird for Superman to has a child that it gains a bit of attention from reader and non-reader alike.

[HsssH]

I'll join the chorus by saying that Jon has been dead for last 2 or so years so I wouldn't mind if he was brought back.

[Laufeyson]

I'll join the chorus by saying that Jon has been dead for last 2 or so years so I wouldn't mind if he was brought back.

Lmao. Here lies Jon. Killed by Bendis because he aged him up, so he can leave his family to join LoSH. May he return to us by rebooting that aged up Jon and ended this nightmare once and for all.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't think Superman as a dad is what most people see him as. I think people see him as this OP character that has characterized as bland as white paint dry, because of the Superman TAS, and the JL portray him as the boyscout character. I believe the Superman as dad character came to attention because it's so weird for Superman to has a child that it gains a bit of attention from reader and non-reader alike.

On the contrary, he is seen as this moral authority figure. Heck! Even all star was reaffirmation of that kind of world view. To be blunt he is jesus. Father of father figures. The boyscout thing is side of effect of that. So they needed someone for superman to give sermons to without turning off others who are casuals. Jon is perfect for that. You see for young children their dad might this perfect moral figure that should be enjoyed by everyone . Hence, the reluctance of seeing him embody any other value system. But, for others he might not be that (putting it mildly).The reason they did it was because all star like interpretation didn't produce results people hoped for in the mainline preflashpoint (grounded). It created a mess.

[Vakanai]

I disagree. As a fan of "the immortal ghost who walks" the phantom and wally west, legacy is fantastic. Especially, when done the right way. It's just superman's later version don't hold a candle to the former(my opinion). Moreover, dc doesn't do legacy in a mythic and larger than life way like phantom does.The phantom oath is especially near and dear to me.
"I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty, and injustice, in all their forms, and my sons and their sons shall follow me"

You disagree that not everyone is in DC for the "legacy"?
I didn't say no one likes legacy, I didn't say it was objectively horrible, I said not everyone likes it, and I'm the living proof. You love it, great for you, but it doesn't disagree with what I said. I am annoyed by legacy when it is done on a masterpiece level by the most talented writers, so most legacy stuff is just off-putting to me.
Furthermore, I asked not to be debated.

Fair enough. Thanks for elaborating.

Thank you.

[Blue22]

I don't think Superman as a dad is what most people see him as. I think people see him as this OP character that has characterized as bland as white paint dry, because of the Superman TAS, and the JL portray him as the boyscout character. I believe the Superman as dad character came to attention because it's so weird for Superman to has a child that it gains a bit of attention from reader and non-reader alike.

You know...that is 100% true in my case. Before Tomasi, I had never consistently read a Superman run specifically because I thought he was a "white paint dry, boyscout character". Granted I still really liked him in those shows. Just not enough to read his books.

As I started reading more comics, I got the feeling that there were more layers to Superman's character but I still didn't care enough to dive into any of his solo adventures, mostly sticking to his team books. But that all changed when 2016 rolled around and I found out he'd be written by one of my favorite writers. Added bonus: his run was not only introducing a new young hero, but his son at that. I've always had a bias towards both family stories and coming of age stories (blame my love of X-Men, Teen Titans, and YJ for that lol) so for the first time ever, I was willing to give a Superman book a chance.

Low behold, not only did I end up loving Jon as a character (which I already kinda figured I would) but I started to realize that I really like Superman too. From what little I read of him in other books and what I'd seen of him in outside media, I thought being a family man was a nice little extension of the kind of character I thought he was. And I liked it. I liked seeing him and Lois go through the obstacles that come with raising a kid with superpowers. And I started to like him enough to go back and check out his other stories.

I'd still consider myself more of a casual fan (definitely like Jon and Conner WAY more than Clark) but thanks to Jon, I've got a new found appreciation for Superman. I've gone from one of the people who thought Superman was just a boring, white bread, boy scout of a character with zero depth, to being someone who'd actually defend him from others who call him that.

[manwhohaseverything]

You disagree that not everyone is in DC for the "legacy"?
I didn't say no one likes legacy, I didn't say it was objectively horrible, I said not everyone likes it, and I'm the living proof. You love it, great for you, but it doesn't disagree with what I said. I am annoyed by legacy when it is done on a masterpiece level by the most talented writers, so most legacy stuff is just off-putting to me.
Furthermore, I asked not to be debated.

Fair enough, i thought you said legacy is hated by everyone in fiction in general. That's why i disagreed. Moreover, it was just disagreement not debate. I wanted to say why i like legacy. The Phantom was is and always will be immortal because of legacy. And that's effing badass concept for me.

[Laufeyson]

On the contrary, he is seen as this moral authority figure. Heck! Even all star was reaffirmation of that kind of world view. To be blunt he is jesus. The boyscout thing is side of effect of that. So they needed someone for superman to give sermons to without turning off others who are casuals. Jon is perfect for that. You see for young children their dad might this perfect moral figure that should be enjoyed by everyone . Hence, the reluctance of seeing him embody any other value system. But, for others he might not be that (putting it mildly).The reason they did it was because all star like interpretation didn't produce results people hoped for in the mainline preflashpoint (grounded). It created a mess.

Young children never see their dad as this perfect moral figure because the spirit of youth is rebellious and wanted to prove something. I think you know what I'm talking about because I believe you love shonen story. Aside from that, to me the boyscout effect comes from his Mr. I'm good and preaching ability that Superman like to do in cartoon, he sounds like that good student that you despise when you go to school. To me, Superman doesn't need to be grounded to be exciting, and that is the fallacy that DC and WB understood. Superman, at its core, is fantasy; he lives in a castle deep hidden in Artic, having a godly power, a bit casanova in his Superman persona, and having adventures beyond everything. Of course, he initially starts as a pulp character like Tarzan or Doc. Samson, but even then he is truly wondrous that is close to us, not because of his settings, but because he tackles what happens in our eyes. So, I believe Jon is not that matter to his grounded ability, but, I think Jon is making easier for writer to write Superman, because you can just write him into a perfect dad to Jon and people will love it.

[manwhohaseverything]

Young children never see their dad as this perfect moral figure because the spirit of youth is rebellious and wanted to prove something. I think you know what I'm talking about because I believe you love shonen story. Aside from that, to me the boyscout effect comes from his Mr. I'm good and preaching ability that Superman like to do in cartoon, he sounds like that good student that you despise when you go to school. To me, Superman doesn't need to be grounded to be exciting, and that is the fallacy that DC and WB understood. Superman, at its core, is fantasy; he lives in a castle deep hidden in Artic, having a godly power, a bit casanova in his Superman persona, and having adventures beyond everything. Of course, he initially starts as a pulp character like Tarzan or Doc. Samson, but even then he is truly wondrous that is close to us, not because of his settings, but because he tackles what happens in our eyes. So, I believe Jon is not that matter to his grounded ability, but, I think Jon is making easier for writer to write Superman, because you can just write him into a perfect dad to Jon and people will love it.

Yeah! That's teens who grow out of that phase and begin to see flaws in the flawless, not children. Moreover, i am speaking generally . Keep in mind, I am not saying kids aren't naughty or mischievous or rule breakers. So you think he is what? A Class president ? Yeah! That would be captain america(when written badly). Captain is very impersonal . Superman on the other hand takes that to whole different level with his disappointment routine(kingdom come, what's so funny... Etc) and personal attachment to his "class mates" . That's not a class president. That's a dad. Jon is not their to ground superman. He is just their to stop him from "seeming" like out of touch guy who talks down to people and not as equals.Because that turns many people off. The guy is written to have a huge messiah complex if you haven't noticed. Moreover, he skyparents and earthparents add feul to that personality of his. The guy wants to save people from themselves because he "loves" us. Does that sound like a class president or a dad? This is grounded.

I don't feel this is how a friend or a brother or even a class president like you say will be dealing with girl like that. There is different connotation to this. Superman is a dad. He sees the entire metropolis or heck! The entire world as his children.

[Laufeyson]

Yeah! That's teens who grow out of that phase and begin to see flaws in the flawless, not children. Moreover, i am speaking generally . Keep in mind, I am not saying kids aren't naughty or mischievous or rule breakers. So you think he is what? A Class president ? Yeah! That would be captain america(when written badly). Captain is very impersonal . Superman on the other hand takes that to whole different level with his disappointment routine(kingdom come, what's so funny... Etc) and personal attachment to his "class mates" . That's not a class president. That's a dad. Jon is not their to ground superman. He is just their to stop him from "seeming" like out of touch guy who talks down to people and not as equals.Because that turns many people off. The guy is written to have a huge messiah complex if you haven't noticed. Moreover, he skyparents and earthparents add feul to that personality of his. The guy wants to save people from themselves because he "loves" us. Does that sound like a class president or a dad? This is grounded.

I don't feel this is how a friend or a brother or even a class president like you say will be dealing with girl like that. There is different connotation to this. Superman is a dad. He sees the entire metropolis or heck! The entire world as his children.

While I agree with you that Superman had a deep layer inside of him that made him special because he sees us like his peers. But, I don't believe that's because of his bad personality, but, because he grows up with us, human. This is something that needs to be noted that Superman is growing up as a human, not as Kryptonian or god. He experiences the joy that we experience and the sadness that we experience. Of course, it's not the same like totally, but he will experience most of the human aspect live that we did only sometimes on the Superman scale. So, for Superman, we are like him and he wanted to reach us and be there for us not as a father or superior figure per se, but as our equal. And what is that reminds you? Jesus Christ. Because of that Superman is noted as Messiah Figure and most writers and casual fans watched him like that.

To be fair, your interpretation of Superman is right and I get that. But, it's just for me, Superman is not a father and he never sees the entire world or metropolis as his children. That is also the fallacy that people love to write about him. Superman wanted to be 'the better us' by becoming 'us'. He doesn't need to be father, he just needs to be us. How? Of course by being a good person and not by just being a dad, but by becoming more and that's why Superman is unique.

Edit: Oh, I forgot, about the Class President. If you read a Silver Age Superman stories, many writers of that time like to interpret Clark as that way to other Superheroes. But, the easiest way to understand this aspect of Clark is by reading the Justice comic book miniseries by Paul Dini and Alex Ross. You will see how he is the head of the heroes with how his Fortress becoming secret base of JL.

[Vakanai]

Fair enough, i thought you said legacy is hated by everyone in fiction in general. That's why i disagreed.

Nope, definitely didn't say that. There's definitely people who love legacy. But there's also those of us who do not.

[Ascended]

On the contrary, they created jon to atleast give context to superman's paternalistic personality. Superman is a dad.That's what most people see him as. You can argue its perception and not reality. But, that's what is the general perception is.

People see Clark as an authority figure, and being a father can be seen as an extension of that, yes. But so can a lot of things. And not all paternal figures are actual parents, especially in fiction. Hell, it could be said that Superman is a father figure to the entire world, so giving him a kid is redundant and limiting.

The idea that Jon gives context to this, while partially true, is roughly as wrong-headed as saying that Batman abusing his sidekicks gives context to his mental trauma. Just because it *can* be spun that way doesn't mean it *should* be, nor is it the only way to achieve said context.

[Odd Rödney]

I want him to survive but I want him to be given more to do.

[Celgress]

I want him to survive but I want him to be given more to do.

My thoughts exactly, here is hoping. *crosses fingers*