Poll: Do you want Jon to survive the post-Bendis era?

[Laufeyson]

Aside from being more fun, part of the appeal of a character like Jon was the very unique position he was in. Superheros have kids all the time but they tend to either become stagnant supporting characters to their parents or they just...don't last. If you're a kid in comics and your parents aren't Reed Richards and Sue Storm, there's a good chance that you aren't going to amount to much as character.

Characters like Jon and Damian are very rare exceptions to that rule. Jon especially, since he's a normal kid and not a mini adult like Damian is, more often than not. Jon offered up a unique and interesting perspective that we hadn't seen from DC since Dick Grayson and his generation: The world of a hero through the eyes of a child, and the opportunity to watch how that perspective grows and changes as he does. For a lot of Jon fans, we did wanna see him grow up to the point he's at...eventually. But we wanted to see that growth; to see him go through all the ups and downs of growing up and all the challenges that creates for him as both a kid and a superhero. To see the kind of person it would make him. Instead, we got seven years of growth and development off screen, just for him to come out of it all as a modern version of the Legion's Clark Kent because it fits Bendis' "the Legion but modern" (well that and, Didio's ill advised 5G idea apparently involved rushing all of the older heroes out of the picture to be replaced).

Long story short: kid Jon was a fun and interesting take on a fun and interesting idea that's rarely ever used. While this current Jon is just another dime a dozen teen hero, only without anything remotely unique or interesting to help him stand out among the INCREDIBLY large crowd (unless you count the Legion treating him like some kind of messiah as something unique and interesting). Besides, we already have a teen Superboy. And he's a great character. We don't need another one.

The only good things that this current Jon has brought to the table are raised awareness for the Legion and an admittedly awesome costume...too bad that's being thrown out the window to give him a design that makes him look even more like "I'm Clark but modern"

I can see the selling point of kid superhero, but I don't see Jon as a glasses for us to see adult Superhero from his PoV yet, so I can't say anything about that. Still I think you are right that he is the second child superhero and that is his selling point, but I think this is I think what nearly all of posters here would agree, but Jon as a character can't or musn't grow up, because that will be the death of his character. His main selling point is that he is the son of Superman, that is a kid like Dick when he was a Robin. The moment he grew up from that and BAM he lost his character and to me that's not because of he became a dozen teen hero, but his main selling is that he is a child Son of Superman.

The matter whether he is a good teen hero or not is up to debate, because he only has 12 issues to tell his story.

[Blue22]

DCeased? are you sure you are not wearing rose-tinted glasses there, because as far as I remember there is nothing funny or adventurous about Dceased.

It's less the main series DCeased and more the spinoff book with him, Damian, and Cassie.

[Blue22]

I can see the selling point of kid superhero, but I don't see Jon as a glasses for us to see adult Superhero from his PoV yet, so I can't say anything about that. Still I think you are right that he is the second child superhero and that is his selling point, but I think this is I think what nearly all of posters here would agree, but Jon as a character can't or musn't grow up, because that will be the death of his character. His main selling point is that he is the son of Superman, that is a kid like Dick when he was a Robin. The moment he grew up from that and BAM he lost his character and to me that's not because of he became a dozen teen hero, but his main selling is that he is a child Son of Superman.

The matter whether he is a good teen hero or not is up to debate, because he only has 12 issues to tell his story.

See that's the thing. I dont want Jon to be a kid forever. I'm perfectly fine with him growing up under two very specific conditions:

1. We actually get to experience this growth over time.
And
2. He doesn't grow up into a clone of his Dad. I let that slide in the DCeased universe because it's an AU, he's filling the shoes of a "dead" Clark, and, honestly, he's still pretty great. Taylor is just really good at a writing him.

But I don't wanna see that for him in the main universe. That defeats the purpose of him being his own person. Even the literal clone of Superman manages to avoid that.

I like him being DC's answer to Franklin and Valeria Richards. Which means he'll grow up eventually, like how those two are growing up now. I just take issue with Bendis and Didio rushing through that growth just to make him redundant.

[Laufeyson]

See that's the thing. I dont want Jon to be a kid forever. I'm perfectly fine with him growing up under two very specific conditions:

1. We actually get to experience this growth over time.
And
2. He doesn't grow up into a clone of his Dad. I let that slide in the DCeased universe because it's an AU, he's filling the shoes of a "dead" Clark, and, honestly, he's still pretty great. Taylor is just really good at a writing him.

But I don't wanna see that for him in the main universe. That defeats the purpose of him being his own person. Even the literal clone of Superman manages to avoid that.

I like him being DC's answer to Franklin and Valeria Richards. Which means he'll grow up eventually, like how those two are growing up now. I just take issue with Bendis and Didio rushing through that growth just to make him redundant.

Well, that's rough, because for Jon to grow up then Clark and Lois need to grow up too and that's the main problem with all of this. The reason why I said that Jon can't grow up is that if Jon or Damian grow up then there will be sense of time where every hero seem unageing while they are aging and that is an idiot. So he can't grow up and even if he grows up he will definitely become like his dad because that's the main selling of his character. It's so rare and I mean I never see it in a fictional story where a child doesn't look like his parent, with the exception if the parent is the bad guy or villain. So I don't think Jon is the exception of that tropes.

[Laufeyson]

See that's the thing. I dont want Jon to be a kid forever. I'm perfectly fine with him growing up under two very specific conditions:

1. We actually get to experience this growth over time.
And
2. He doesn't grow up into a clone of his Dad. I let that slide in the DCeased universe because it's an AU, he's filling the shoes of a "dead" Clark, and, honestly, he's still pretty great. Taylor is just really good at a writing him.

But I don't wanna see that for him in the main universe. That defeats the purpose of him being his own person. Even the literal clone of Superman manages to avoid that.

I like him being DC's answer to Franklin and Valeria Richards. Which means he'll grow up eventually, like how those two are growing up now. I just take issue with Bendis and Didio rushing through that growth just to make him redundant.

Double Post sorry.

[Sacred Knight]

I'd guess it'll be the reverse. Clark will be older, married, and have Jon in the main books while the out-of-continuity stuff (like Smashes the Klan) gives us the more classic, single Superman.

I'd be fine with that. As much as I don't want Clark to be a father, with DC putting more emphasis on digital and OGN's, that means (in theory) there'll be more opportunity for classic versions of characters while the main continuity can continue to advance the overall narrative.

DC has a really bad habit of trying to have their cake and eat it too, but in this case I think it is actually achievable; if they focus less on a single main continuity and put a healthy amount of stand-alone material out there in conjunction with the main line, then we can get the classic versions of characters as well as the growth, evolution, and development you can only find in a serialized, ongoing narrative.

Basically get rid of the perpetuated notion everyone has that the main continuity is the only thing that matters. Absolutely. That'd be a goal I hope they work to achieve now. The appeal of the main line should be the history aspect and that its the largest world, in the sense it houses an incarnation of just about everyone. That alone gives it all the cachet it needs. But if you advertise and market the other stuff (which hopefully comes aplenty) just as much, then the illusion that that stuff matters less would die down, I think.

[Vordan]

Interesting. Got a link? When was this announced?

When they announced DC Universe was going Comics only they also mentioned there would be “DC Universe Infinite Originals”. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.syf...infinite%3famp
And here’s the original rumor about all new digital exclusive versions of Batman and Superman: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/rumo...ng-initiative/

Kinda surprised you missed all this. Now we don’t know how much plans have changed, Ellis was apparently involved at one point but not any longer obviously. But BC was proven right about 5G, then about 5G dying with Didio, and they were correct that a big digital push from DC was in the works.

[Ascended]

Basically get rid of the perpetuated notion everyone has that the main continuity is the only thing that matters. Absolutely. That'd be a goal I hope they work to achieve now. The appeal of the main line should be the history aspect and that its the largest world, in the sense it houses an incarnation of just about everyone. That alone gives it all the cachet it needs. But if you advertise and market the other stuff (which hopefully comes aplenty) just as much, then the illusion that that stuff matters less would die down, I think.

I believe so, yeah.

Now, convincing the hardcore Wednesday Warrior that the ongoing continuity isn't the only important thing is asking a lot; we are extremely entrenched in that mindset and have proven many times that we'll buy what's "important" even when it's crap quality while passing on really good books that "don't matter" to the larger narrative.

But I don't think it's impossible. We often say the best stuff is the out of continuity work; the All-Star Supermans and the DKR's. We're already prepped to buy those prestige mini's and I don't think it'd take much to get us to shift over to OGN's. Digital will be hit or miss; most of us old bastard fans like our paper, but odds are the digital stuff will end up in some kind of print eventually anyway. And we're not the only/primary audience for that stuff anyway so if we don't buy it that won't hurt DC very much.

And I think a steady supply of self-contained material *might* provide a little more freedom to the ongoing narrative too. Like, Sacred, you know the precedent for Clark "eventually" going public but don't like it actually happening in the main canon so tell me; if you had a solid, steady supply of classic Superman stories in miniseries, OGN's, digital, whatever, would the main canon reaching this point in Clark's life hit as hard or matter as much? Or would you just end up seeing the main canon as a kind of never-ending "future tales" that you don't have to take too seriously or consider the ultimate, sole authority on Superman?

[Jackalope89]

Jon going from pre-teen to young adult isn't that long. So getting caught up on all that just seems a bit odd (in regards to Lois and Clark getting a little older).

But yeah. Bendis' Jon has been Clark in all but name. Under Tomasi, Jurgens, Snyder (brief as it was), and even Tom Taylor of all people, Jon is more his own person. Yes, he has traits of Clark, and needs more of Lois' traits, but he's still distinct and growing up.

[Sacred Knight]

Oh it wouldn't hit at all as much. In fact if anything, having a steady diet of other materials that matched more what I was going for, it'd make me more open to give moving further forward in the main continuity a try myself. Because if I tried it and still didn't like it, no harm no foul. I wouldn't feel like I was out of options because I wouldn't be. I would see it as "Okay, this is a canon that by intent is going further beyond. They can roll with that, I can roll with the stuff that is a little more my speed. And hey maybe I even check it out from time to time myself." Having options changes how passionate I am about some ideals simply because I'd know its no longer all or nothing. My preferences would remain but you just mainly go where your preferences best lead to (understanding that even then, not everyone is going to get their 100% ideal all the time; there's asking for options and then there's asking for an impossible catering).

[manwhohaseverything]

DCeased? are you sure you are not wearing rose-tinted glasses there, because as far as I remember there is nothing funny or adventurous about Dceased.

Didn't you read that issue with kiteman, damian stealing invisible jet... Etc?

[Ascended]

In fact if anything, having a steady diet of other materials that matched more what I was going for, it'd make me more open to give moving further forward in the main continuity a try myself. Because if I tried it and still didn't like it, no harm no foul. I wouldn't feel like I was out of options because I wouldn't be.

And hopefully this is what we get. If AT&T are serious about this new effort then we're looking at legit effort being put into formats with wider demographics and different audiences, which means more choices and options for us. That, in turn, means the direct market not only has a little more freedom (in theory) but also forces them to be smarter about their product and maintain higher quality, because if the ongoing titles aren't worth reading we fans will have other options to get our fix.

And all of this, if they do it well, means more revenue, which means more resources for more material, including reprints of classic stuff to help fill out bookstore shelves between volumes of new material.....

Basically, there's no real downside to getting outside the direct market and singular continuity....assuming DC doesn't muck it all up with crap product and halfass effort. And with new people in charge that's a real possibility now, in a way it hasn't been in decades.

But time will tell.

[Vakanai]

I'd guess it'll be the reverse. Clark will be older, married, and have Jon in the main books while the out-of-continuity stuff (like Smashes the Klan) gives us the more classic, single Superman.

I'd be fine with that. As much as I don't want Clark to be a father, with DC putting more emphasis on digital and OGN's, that means (in theory) there'll be more opportunity for classic versions of characters while the main continuity can continue to advance the overall narrative.

DC has a really bad habit of trying to have their cake and eat it too, but in this case I think it is actually achievable; if they focus less on a single main continuity and put a healthy amount of stand-alone material out there in conjunction with the main line, then we can get the classic versions of characters as well as the growth, evolution, and development you can only find in a serialized, ongoing narrative.

This is the best post in this thread. Frankly I see the "main continuity" decreasing in importance over the coming years. It's already a trend that's kind of started. More people watch the movies and shows and cartoons than read the books, the YA books and Black Label books and DCeased and Injustice books penetrate further and sell better than most of the monthly ongoings. And that's only going to continue. I am definitely looking forward to that.

So I hate Jon - luckily most of the big must have books of the future won't take place in continuities he's in. Least I don't think so.

[Vakanai]

When they announced DC Universe was going Comics only they also mentioned there would be “DC Universe Infinite Originals”. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.syf...infinite%3famp
And here’s the original rumor about all new digital exclusive versions of Batman and Superman: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/rumo...ng-initiative/

Kinda surprised you missed all this. Now we don’t know how much plans have changed, Ellis was apparently involved at one point but not any longer obviously. But BC was proven right about 5G, then about 5G dying with Didio, and they were correct that a big digital push from DC was in the works.

Looks very interesting and promising! Going to have to learn how to go digital I guess, but definitely seems like the sort of thing I want. Thanks for the info!

[Vakanai]

I believe so, yeah.

Now, convincing the hardcore Wednesday Warrior that the ongoing continuity isn't the only important thing is asking a lot; we are extremely entrenched in that mindset and have proven many times that we'll buy what's "important" even when it's crap quality while passing on really good books that "don't matter" to the larger narrative.

But I don't think it's impossible. We often say the best stuff is the out of continuity work; the All-Star Supermans and the DKR's. We're already prepped to buy those prestige mini's and I don't think it'd take much to get us to shift over to OGN's. Digital will be hit or miss; most of us old bastard fans like our paper, but odds are the digital stuff will end up in some kind of print eventually anyway. And we're not the only/primary audience for that stuff anyway so if we don't buy it that won't hurt DC very much.

And I think a steady supply of self-contained material *might* provide a little more freedom to the ongoing narrative too. Like, Sacred, you know the precedent for Clark "eventually" going public but don't like it actually happening in the main canon so tell me; if you had a solid, steady supply of classic Superman stories in miniseries, OGN's, digital, whatever, would the main canon reaching this point in Clark's life hit as hard or matter as much? Or would you just end up seeing the main canon as a kind of never-ending "future tales" that you don't have to take too seriously or consider the ultimate, sole authority on Superman?

I can honestly say if the "main" continuity goes that far and sticks with it I'd view main continuity as just another Elseworld. A really big Elseworld, but still.