I think a crossover with The Boys would be awesome

[j9ac9k]

It might be fair to return the favor on some of Ennis's work by having some exaggerated thinly veiled expies of the Boys getting taken down by superheroes.

Or going against the Legion of Doom and having it end horrifically for them.

Ennis's "Hitman" is probably the closest we'll get to seeing The Boys in the DCU.

[Agent Z]

It might be fair to return the favor on some of Ennis's work by having some exaggerated thinly veiled expies of the Boys getting taken down by superheroes.

Or going against the Legion of Doom and having it end horrifically for them.

Probably not a good idea. Every time DC's tried to do a "take that" like this it has come across as petty, morally confused and just plain reeking of insecurity. And honestly, how Ennis writes supers of his own creation is kind of tame compared to what DC's done to characters they actually own. See Cry For Justice, Infinite Crisis and Rise of Arsenal just for examples. Ennis isn't the enemy of DC here, it's DC themselves.

[SiegePerilous02]

Probably not a good idea. Every time DC's tried to do a "take that" like this it has come across as petty, morally confused and just plain reeking of insecurity. And honestly, how Ennis writes supers of his own creation is kind of tame compared to what DC's done to characters they actually own. See Cry For Justice, Infinite Crisis and Rise of Arsenal just for examples. Ennis isn't the enemy of DC here, it's DC themselves.

The pettiness is actually something of a vibe I get off of Ennis every time he takes shot at superheroes. If he can dish it out, maybe we can see if he can take it?

Note that I never said DC themselves weren't screwing themselves and their characters over in other situations.

EDIT: and isn't there some moral confusion or some very dicey things going on when Ennis's DC work includes Kyle Rayner getting raped and it's played for laughs?

[iron chimp]

The pettiness is actually something of a vibe I get off of Ennis every time he takes shot at superheroes. If he can dish it out, maybe we can see if he can take it?

Note that I never said DC themselves weren't screwing themselves and their characters over in other situations.

EDIT: and isn't there some moral confusion or some very dicey things going on when Ennis's DC work includes Kyle Rayner getting raped and it's played for laughs?

Anyone growing up in northern ireland in 70s and 80s will have lived through some horrific times - i very doubt he could care less about some comic book taking a pop at him - hes been 'banned', censored and the author of things far bigger than superhero comics

[Crazy Diamond]

The pettiness is actually something of a vibe I get off of Ennis every time he takes shot at superheroes. If he can dish it out, maybe we can see if he can take it?

Note that I never said DC themselves weren't screwing themselves and their characters over in other situations.

EDIT: and isn't there some moral confusion or some very dicey things going on when Ennis's DC work includes Kyle Rayner getting raped and it's played for laughs?

If DC Comics didn't spend close to two decades making their heroes look like chumps at best and at worst no better than the villains they were fighting against writers like Garth Ennis wouldn't have the material they had to make fun of them. Most people don't hold superheroes with the same kind of reverence that the likes of Waid and Johns have and especially if they didn't grow up with them.

Garth Ennis never liked any of the Green Lanterns but he took Kyle about as seriously as most of DC's writers did for the majority of his existence i.e not at all.

[SiegePerilous02]

Anyone growing up in northern ireland in 70s and 80s will have lived through some horrific times - i very doubt he could care less about some comic book taking a pop at him - hes been 'banned', censored and the author of things far bigger than superhero comics

If he wouldn't care, there shouldn't be insecurity on if other writers want to take shots at the archetypes he favors as a rebuttal. He'd probably just return the favor again anyway.

If DC Comics didn't spend close to two decades making their heroes look like chumps at best and at worst no better than the villains they were fighting against writers like Garth Ennis wouldn't have the material they had to make fun of them. Most people don't hold superheroes with the same kind of reverence that the likes of Waid and Johns have and especially if they didn't grow up with them.

Garth Ennis never liked any of the Green Lanterns but he took Kyle about as seriously as most of DC's writers did for the majority of his existence i.e not at all.

Again, DC screwing the pooch a lot doesn't mean any individual writer couldn't do a well thought out rebuttal towards the stuff Ennis favors. Why make it into an either/or thing? It's not like he limits his jabs to DC after all. It also doesn't have to be someone like Waid or Johns, Al Ewing apparently snuck in some criticisms or at least deconstructions of his writing when he did his run on Jennifer Blood.

Does not taking Kyle seriously mean rape jokes are suddenly funny?

[iron chimp]

If DC Comics didn't spend close to two decades making their heroes look like chumps at best and at worst no better than the villains they were fighting against writers like Garth Ennis wouldn't have the material they had to make fun of them. Most people don't hold superheroes with the same kind of reverence that the likes of Waid and Johns have and especially if they didn't grow up with them.

Garth Ennis never liked any of the Green Lanterns but he took Kyle about as seriously as most of DC's writers did for the majority of his existence i.e not at all.

They'd have to speak for themselves but i personally think it all goes back much further into the complicated messy times of 1980s usa cold war cultural propaganda, cruise missiles being installed in uk etc.

Nearly all the big uk comics guys had pretty tough attitude to usa superhero comics in that era - moore, morrison, milligan, ennis, wagner, mills etc.

Notions of all powerful american supermen protecting the earth left a bitter taste for a lot of UK writers.

[iron chimp]

If he wouldn't care, there shouldn't be insecurity on if other writers want to take shots at the archetypes he favors as a rebuttal. He'd probably just return the favor again anyway.




Again, DC screwing the pooch a lot doesn't mean any individual writer couldn't do a well thought out rebuttal towards the stuff Ennis favors. Why make it into an either/or thing? It's not like he limits his jabs to DC after all. It also doesn't have to be someone like Waid or Johns, Al Ewing apparently snuck in some criticisms or at least deconstructions of his writing when he did his run on Jennifer Blood.

Does not taking Kyle seriously mean rape jokes are suddenly funny?

All i would say is be patient. Its garth ennis. Its not going to be a standard story.

[SiegePerilous02]

They'd have to speak for themselves but i personally think it all goes back much further into the complicated messy times of 1980s usa cold war cultural propaganda, cruise missiles being installed in uk etc.

Nearly all the big uk comics guys had pretty tough attitude to usa superhero comics in that era - moore, morrison, milligan, ennis, wagner, mills etc.

Notions of all powerful american supermen protecting the earth left a bitter taste for a lot of UK writers.

I think this has more to do with it than any recent screw ups at DC giving him material to work with. he doesn't strike me as the type who would give a **** about current events of DC continuity and mishandling of their characters to give him "fuel". Which, can't entirely blame him on that front.* But aside from Superman and a few others, he seems to dislike the inherent ideas behind superheroes even from their very beginnings. Like he hated Captain America for being "offensive," though that ignores that Cap was very popular among American soldiers and Cap's creator was Jack Kirby who actually fought in WWII.

Like you say, he's just not as close culturally to superheroes as we are, and he's not obligated to be so. But he does lionize other archetypes in his works, and it's not like his stuff is too big to be taken down some pegs once and a while as well. He wouldn't care, and it could be well done in itself.

*Morrison, meanwhile, loves both the DC characters and actually pays attention to current events, and got pretty scathing with how they handle Superman and the others recently in his Blackstars.

[Crazy Diamond]

I think this has more to do with it than any recent screw ups at DC giving him material to work with. he doesn't strike me as the type who would give a **** about current events of DC continuity and mishandling of their characters to give him "fuel". Which, can't entirely blame him on that front.* But aside from Superman and a few others, he seems to dislike the inherent ideas behind superheroes even from their very beginnings. Like he hated Captain America for being "offensive," though that ignores that Cap was very popular among American soldiers and Cap's creator was Jack Kirby who actually fought in WWII.

Like you say, he's just not as close culturally to superheroes as we are, and he's not obligated to be so. But he does lionize other archetypes in his works, and it's not like his stuff is too big to be taken down some pegs once and a while as well. He wouldn't care, and it could be well done in itself.

*Morrison, meanwhile, loves both the DC characters and actually pays attention to current events, and got pretty scathing with how they handle Superman and the others recently in his Blackstars.

From what I remember from The Boys and The Pro, several of the storylines skewered what was going on with DC and Marvel along with their business practices. He's not like John Byrne but there was a clear contempt for what they were doing at the time.

He would hate what Captain America stands for because it's a character trivializing war and being used as nationalist propaganda. Though Ennis went easy on him compared to Pat Mills in Marshal Law.

If someone did a send up of his war comics or stuff like Crossed I could see that working but what would be there to say about his superhero work? It's not like what he wrote about wasn't true.

[iron chimp]

I think this has more to do with it than any recent screw ups at DC giving him material to work with. he doesn't strike me as the type who would give a **** about current events of DC continuity and mishandling of their characters to give him "fuel". Which, can't entirely blame him on that front.* But aside from Superman and a few others, he seems to dislike the inherent ideas behind superheroes even from their very beginnings. Like he hated Captain America for being "offensive," though that ignores that Cap was very popular among American soldiers and Cap's creator was Jack Kirby who actually fought in WWII.

Like you say, he's just not as close culturally to superheroes as we are, and he's not obligated to be so. But he does lionize other archetypes in his works, and it's not like his stuff is too big to be taken down some pegs once and a while as well. He wouldn't care, and it could be well done in itself.

*Morrison, meanwhile, loves both the DC characters and actually pays attention to current events, and got pretty scathing with how they handle Superman and the others recently in his Blackstars.

Obviously i dont know if the show will play out like the comic and i would imagine the show is far more palatable to a lot of more people than the comic which was very raw / brutal / graphic / obscene / word of choice.

But if yr enjoying the show Id say come back to the comments you made here in the thread when the show finishes. You might find it interesting to reread them.

[SiegePerilous02]

He would hate what Captain America stands for because it's a character trivializing war and being used as nationalist propaganda. Though Ennis went easy on him compared to Pat Mills in Marshal Law.

I don't know how accurate it is because it was from Wikipedia (though articles are cited), but he finds Captain America ""borderline offensive, because to me the reality of World War II was very human people, ordinary flesh-and-blood guys who slogged it out in miserable, flooded foxholes. So adding some fantasy superhero narrative, that has always annoyed me a little bit."

But Cap was created by an actual flesh-and-blood WWII veteran, Jack Kirby, and was popular among American soldiers. So that criticism seems out of touch.
The nationalism bit, if there is a quote on that, is a different story though and not unreasonable

If someone did a send up of his war comics or stuff like Crossed I could see that working but what would be there to say about his superhero work? It's not like what he wrote about wasn't true.

Skewering the business practices, he's not wrong (but is having Kyle the victim of black comedy rape skewering their practices? He did it because he thought GL inherently sucks)
Flanderizing the expies so he can make them look like buffoons in favor of his OC's? He can do whatever he wants, but if someone to skewer his stuff in return it may be funny. That's all I'm saying, it doesn't even have to be a DC or Marvel comic. It could be an Image book about expies. He'd probably find it funny and then just keep trucking along and fire back.

Obviously i dont know if the show will play out like the comic and i would imagine the show is far more palatable to a lot of more people than the comic which was very raw / brutal / graphic / obscene / word of choice.

But if yr enjoying the show Id say come back to the comments you made here in the thread when the show finishes. You might find it interesting to reread them.

But I'd be talking about the show, not the comics. My opinion on the show is already favorable. What would I need to re-read?

Unless you mean for me to read the comics, but..eh. They kind of grossed me out when I tried the first trade, and some of the feedback on the show I've seen is that it improves on things by taking the core premise and toning down the Ennis-isms.

From what I remember from The Boys and The Pro, several of the storylines skewered what was going on with DC and Marvel along with their business practices. He's not like John Byrne but there was a clear contempt for what they were doing at the time.

The rant in the Pro where the main character shits all over the Justice League analogues for not being real or "not having balls" seems more of an indictment on the genre itself, not then-current practices. He thinks superheroes are ridiculous, which is fairly easy to do when you reduce them to their most grotesque caricatures and put them into humiliating situations. Some of it comes across as something an edgy teen would come up with.

[Guy_McNichts]

An issue with creating a 'take that' story on Ennis is his portrayal of superheroes tend to be pompous, aloof, brutish, sanctimonious and removed from 'real world' problems. Like in both The Boys and The Pro he was very critical of the idea superheroes could or would do anything to stop 9/11...because terrorists are a real problem and superheroes are too stupid and soft to handle real problems.

So to have a story where the Justice League just beats the living hell out of a bunch of thinly veiled Boys, while cathartic, would only play into the idea superheroes are would-be fascists with their heads up their asses.

A proper 'take that' against Ennis would be a story where superheroes prove to be genuine and inspirational--but even then would probably play into his stereotypical portrayal of heroes as soft, kiddie nonsense unlike the guys he does approve of like Punisher.

I think the closest to this story done well would be "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, & the American Way?"

[SiegePerilous02]

An issue with creating a 'take that' story on Ennis is his portrayal of superheroes tend to be pompous, aloof, brutish, sanctimonious and removed from 'real world' problems. Like in both The Boys and The Pro he was very critical of the idea superheroes could or would do anything to stop 9/11...because terrorists are a real problem and superheroes are too stupid and soft to handle real problems.

So to have a story where the Justice League just beats the living hell out of a bunch of thinly veiled Boys, while cathartic, would only play into the idea superheroes are would-be fascists with their heads up their asses.

A proper 'take that' against Ennis would be a story where superheroes prove to be genuine and inspirational--but even then would probably play into his stereotypical portrayal of heroes as soft, kiddie nonsense unlike the guys he does approve of like Punisher.

I think the closest to this story done well would be "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, & the American Way?"

This would be more along the lines of what I'd like than them just getting beat up, because the latter wouldn't have much thought put into it. Whereas guys like Punisher ARE a real problem and are terrorists in their own right.

I think we could improve upon "What's so funny..." though

[iron chimp]

Are the seven not the justice league in the TV show? In the comic they are clearly the league.