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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I don't dispute the contribution the FF made to marvel and the industry itself ... its massive. And they deserve every bit of credit they get in that regard.

    That said ... Empyre was an Avengers event which just happened to have the FF in it. Yes, the FF did have the name on the cover (which is a first in an event in awhile) and was jointly written by the FF writer ... but I don't think anyone who read it felt like it was an FF event. And its not just that event ... FF hasn't really had that strong a presence in marvel in decades. That's not a diss ... just saying. If Empyre was an attempt at changing that, it was a fail.
    That's a real life problem, not an in-universe one.
    Marvel has treated the FF as the red-headed stepchild for decades, but they're treatment and opinion of them in-universe hasn't changed much.
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  2. #32
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    Either the Fantastic Four or the Avengers get respect in the Marvel Universe.
    As a whole the Avengers get more respect because they apear more in saving the world from major villains (Can be seen comparing the times the Avengers apear in Marvel events to the times Fantastic Four apear in events or who is more of a protagonist of these two teams of characters in those very same events)
    For example the change of members in the Fantastic Four are not something that looks as something that is important in the Marvel Universe as the change of members in the Avengers.
    And that´s something that is not a fault in the stories but more with how historically the Fantastic Four stories are more about stories of a family that the stories of the Avengers.

  3. #33
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    That's a real life problem, not an in-universe one.
    Marvel has treated the FF as the red-headed stepchild for decades, but they're treatment and opinion of them in-universe hasn't changed much.
    In universe they are very much respected... but I don't get the same rock star vibe the Avengers have.

    Think of it in Justice League terms. Superman and Batman are already big high profile celebrity heroes... and now you're putting them together in the JLA. It's like Madonna back in the day forming a group with Micheal Jackson with the Rolling Stones playing back up.

    Avengers are kind of that with Captain America, Iron Man and Thor. They're greater than the some of their parts. FF doesn't have that multiplayer action.

    To put it in simple terms, FF don't necessarily get as many parades as the Avengers do. Doesn't mean theyre not respected... but they probably have the number 2 spot.

  4. #34
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    The Fantastic Four: Mostly positive due to Reed's influence in the world and the other members being down-to-Earth. They're portrayed as being at good terms with most of 616.

    Avengers: Varies but it's lower than FF for sure. This is probably due to most of their personal matters causing trouble for the general public.

    X-Men: Bad due to 616's mutant problems.

    Champions: Only liked by teens.
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  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Brute force is the most loved!

    Ok for real i think it's the fantastic four. In the 60s they were not as liked from people wanting to boot them out of their home to people saying galactus was fake and made up by the ff to the point it put the thing into a depressing! Afterwords however they took off. They have toys, video games, they are movie stars and have acted in films, torch had a tv show, all the ff cartoons we got were real in the mcu also. In marvels they were on signs for food chains and the wedding was huge and treated like stars getting married! The ff is marvels "royal family" to the mcu.

    Avengers is still loved and that can lead to hate. People are picky about who they want in the avengers like attacking justice and firestar and getting upset over no black heroes on the team leading to 3-D man coming in.

    Ironic people attacked justice but loved beast! Even had a guy dress as him in a avengers day issue! Avengers have parades, a once a year a day event like in the game, toys and comics and shirts! People keep up with all members and even will judge them on how good or powerful they are to the team. Avengers are like a football team. They love the team but may not like all the players!

    X-men are feared most of the time but were loved after fall of the mutants when they "died" to save everyone. X-factor was loved as well in the 80s. Excalibur was loved in the uk and alpha flight was loved in canada.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    A number of characters are closely affiliated with the team, share complex personal histories with one or more of its members but have never actually held an official membership. They include but are not limited to:

    Trouble is some ARE members on that list. Heck they showed up in the "all ff members" story.

    Herbie, ghost rider, wolvrine and hulk were ff members. Thundra has been listed as a full member by marvel at times as well. They list Lyja/ namor/ kristoff as "aids" as well but they went on full missions with the ff for over 14 issues! Dr doom was LEADER of the ff for 2 issues in the 70s! What about the wildstorm heroes who joined in heroes return?

    Where is tigra? Wasn't she a one time member? Where is iceman who they confirmed was a ff member?

    That list is not right.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not sure about that. Captain America has at times been controversial (for good and bad reasons). He's "loyal to nothing but the dream" so he has at times done stuff like say expose Richard Nixon as the head of the Secret Invasion and gone "Nomad". He was also the leader of the faction of CIVIL WAR i.e. Team Cap that somehow (and inexplicably) ended with the lower public opinion than Iron Man mostly because newscommenters felt knowing about myspace was more important to fight over than the Constitution. Then he died for a while, and came back later fought another civil war against Avengers during Time Runs Out, and then recently had the "Hydra Cap" thing which still stains his "good name" even if that was Stevil.

    In the case of Iron Man, he was an a--hole before he became a superhero, and after becoming a superhero is known for his alcoholic binges, his self-righteousness and so on.

    Thor...probably does have the best reputation on 616 Earth mostly because he's not always involved with Midgard. Captain Marvel is still somewhat new.



    Reed Richards is acknowledged and celebrated as the greatest scientist of 616. That hasn't changed one bit. Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm are universally beloved figures. Ben Grimm himself might be the most loved hero of 616. Susan Storm is an ex-Shield agent and highly respected as well.

    So the FF are just as much icons as they are celebrities.
    Steve's faction ended up with the lower public opinion because they were essentially arguing for the right to be vigilantes without consequences. No one wanted to hear about how superheroes have perfect judgement after the New Warriors got over 600 people killed. Iron Man's faction at least acted like they were trying to keep the public's trust.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think with the FF you're more likely to see them on the street than you are an Avenger but the Avegers get more high profile coverage as far as fighting villains and Supervillains than the FF do. And the Avengers got cosmic recognition from the Kree/Skrull War and the battle with the Builders during Infinity.

    I don't think the X-Men are "bad boys" or "rebels" so much as like Spider-Man where the general public view them more enigmatically and with more bias even though they ostensibly play by the same rules as the other heroes.

    Remember, it was within the pages of the FF that the Kree, Skrulls, Galactus, were first introduced. Plus, Doom. The FF has some of the greatest villains in the MU as well.

  9. #39
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In universe they are very much respected... but I don't get the same rock star vibe the Avengers have...
    That's true. If you include the wrecked-a-hotel-while-stoned-on-what-have-you infamy that sometimes attaches to rock stars. As others have pointed out, the Avengers probably have higher highs with the in-verse public, but they are also prone to much more severe PR disasters. Their reputation is probably more extreme than the FF's, in both directions, but not likely more respected.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In universe they are very much respected... but I don't get the same rock star vibe the Avengers have.
    The Fantastic Four are essentially The Beatles of the MU. So I'd say they have a rock star vibe but like the Beatles have become so widely and popularly embraced that they've lost the outlaw bad boy sheen that they started with. There's no one kind of rockstar after all.

    Think of it in Justice League terms. Superman and Batman are already big high profile celebrity heroes... and now you're putting them together in the JLA.
    Bear in mind that when Justice League first launched, Batman and Superman were there but weren't too heavily featured. Those two characters had their own team up book (World's Finest Comics) that was published before and after and alongside Justice League. Wonder Woman was famously made the "secretary".

    So even the JLA were never all that at the start. They were novel certainly but it took a while before that title lived up to what it promised.

    As far as Marvel goes, their Superman and Batman is Spider-Man. He's the only solo hero they've had that commanded that, and Spider-Man has had a longer association with Fantastic Four than with the Avengers (also a happier relationship with the FF than the Avengers, who mostly treat him badly).

    The Marvel Team books are not comparable to the DC stuff in any way. Remember for most of history, Marvel's biggest team is X-Men, and right now it's the biggest team once again.

    To put it in simple terms, FF don't necessarily get as many parades as the Avengers do.
    How do we even quantify that?

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5145649]The Fantastic Four are essentially The Beatles of the MU. So I'd say they have a rock star vibe but like the Beatles have become so widely and popularly embraced that they've lost the outlaw bad boy sheen that they started with. There's no one kind of rockstar after all.



    Bear in mind that when Justice League first launched, Batman and Superman were there but weren't too heavily featured. Those two characters had their own team up book (World's Finest Comics) that was published before and after and alongside Justice League. Wonder Woman was famously made the "secretary". /QUOTE]

    Wonder Woman was Secretary in The Golden Age Era JSA. With The Justice league she was a member and fought side by side with the rest.
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  12. #42
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    FF doesn't have as big screw up like Avengers. I mean Civil War I and II, Secret Empire, All have Avengers members publicly screwing up majorly. The edge would probably go to FF imo
    Public opinion turns on the FF every now and then though. The start of Robinson's run had a lot of people bringing up their grievances towards the FF that they didn't even know about.
    The X-men have been hunted multiple times by the government or Clash with the government. Off the top

    1. Krakoa(clash with government)
    2. Utopia(clash with government)
    3. After M-day- All the mutants were rounded up in camps
    4. Outback era- They were hiding from government???
    5. Operation Zero Tolerance-Government hunted them down
    6. Pre Hickman a government agency- was allowed to hunt them
    7. X-men Red-( clashed with government)
    8. The X-men clash with Avengers over Magneto back in the day

    They are more stuff, Plus M-pox and Phoenix Five stuff also didn't help their cause. The X-men is clearly in the camp of Rebels and I think Claremont's Xavier Security Forces attempt when they were UN sponsored and had badges and the begin of San Francisco era was last two times they have tried to be straight up heroes. We have more comic history with them as rebels than traditional superheroes at this point.The public has to see the government reactions to the X-men and their view point will be shaped by that.
    Even The Avengers clash with the government at times. Just in terms of their general goals and methods of operating they come off as, usually, a more traditional Superhero team despite their standing or view by local law enforcement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As far as Marvel goes, their Superman and Batman is Spider-Man. He's the only solo hero they've had that commanded that, and Spider-Man has had a longer association with Fantastic Four than with the Avengers (also a happier relationship with the FF than the Avengers, who mostly treat him badly).
    But in-universe the commonly regarded Superman/Batman analogue are Cap, Iron Man, or Thor if you slot him into the Superman slot instead of Wonder Woman.
    The Marvel Team books are not comparable to the DC stuff in any way. Remember for most of history, Marvel's biggest team is X-Men, and right now it's the biggest team once again.
    But Avengers is still their go-to, main, Superhero team book.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Fantastic Four are more loved and respected across the MU on the whole mostly because the FF have generally been consistent to the Big 4 (Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben). The Avengers though have shuffled and changed their roster multiple times over.

    People respect and like the Avengers but at the same time this is a team that has been controversial whether it's Cap's Kooky Kwartet (recruiting former supervillains like Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Wanda), bringing Namor into the team (around the time of UNDER SIEGE, which sparked protests outside Avengers Mansion), the entire Hank-Janet Saga (which went public where people knew that an Avengers founder was a wife-abuser and went to jail, admittedly he was framed for the latter but it did tarnish him). Then you have CIVIL WAR and the spectacle of the Avengers breaking into schisms and publicly fighting each other and also sending people they disagree into Negatize Zone Gulags.

    Among the mutants, the Avengers' name is mud: they didn't do anything about Genosha, they didn't do anything against the Sentinels, one of their own (Wanda) decimated and depowered most mutants, and so on and so forth.


    To be honest, the Avengers should be disliked far more in the MU than they already are because their history reads like a litany of screwups and that's based on what we can presume the public knows. I haven't brought up stuff like the Illuminati and their shenanigans with the Incursions, most of which didn't play out among the populace.

    The FF haven't always been perfect (and they have at times been involved with the Avengers in stuff that goes down above) but collectively, they've been spotless by comparison.

    That said, after EMPYRE, I think the reputation of the Avengers and the FF is a bit higher than it was before.
    Well, thanks to the MCU, the Avengers became much popular than the FF. Hopefully, when the new FF movie is made, it'll put them on a similar pedal. Maybe not the same but something close to it.

  14. #44
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Fantastic Four are essentially The Beatles of the MU. So I'd say they have a rock star vibe but like the Beatles have become so widely and popularly embraced that they've lost the outlaw bad boy sheen that they started with. There's no one kind of rockstar after all.



    Bear in mind that when Justice League first launched, Batman and Superman were there but weren't too heavily featured. Those two characters had their own team up book (World's Finest Comics) that was published before and after and alongside Justice League. Wonder Woman was famously made the "secretary".

    So even the JLA were never all that at the start. They were novel certainly but it took a while before that title lived up to what it promised.

    As far as Marvel goes, their Superman and Batman is Spider-Man. He's the only solo hero they've had that commanded that, and Spider-Man has had a longer association with Fantastic Four than with the Avengers (also a happier relationship with the FF than the Avengers, who mostly treat him badly).

    The Marvel Team books are not comparable to the DC stuff in any way. Remember for most of history, Marvel's biggest team is X-Men, and right now it's the biggest team once again.



    How do we even quantify that?
    If we're speaking in story, and no Spiderman doesn't command the respect comparable to a Superman. The closest parallel is Captain America.

    If we're not talking in story then comparing the Avengers to the FF isn't really that close. Again no disrespect to the FF ... I'm a fan. But they haven't been really all that relevant to the larger mu in quite some time.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reed View Post
    Well, thanks to the MCU, the Avengers became much popular than the FF. Hopefully, when the new FF movie is made, it'll put them on a similar pedal. Maybe not the same but something close to it.
    We are discussing comics here and not the MCU. The success of the MCU hasn't translated to the comics versions of The Avengers and for that matter Iron Man, Thor, Captain America.

    And success is not forever. The Avengers are big now because of the MCU but there's no guarantee they'll always be big. Superman was big after the Reeve movie, now he's still big but he's been diminished with his most recent films not selling as well as Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Shazam and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Again no disrespect to the FF ... I'm a fan. But they haven't been really all that relevant to the larger mu in quite some time.
    The biggest Marvel event of the last decade -- Secret Wars 2015 happens to have the FF at the center.

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