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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It changes from writer to writer I think, and also era to era. The Fantastic Four were unquestionably the apex team in the '60s and 70s. The event which put Marvel Earth on the map of Marvel Cosmic is the Four stopping Galactus from gobbling it up. So across the Marvel Cosmos, Earth is known for being the planet of the Fantastic Four rather than the planet of the Avengers.

    I'd say in 616 Marvel -- Fantastic Four and The Avengers -- are on par with equal prestige. The X-Men are the bad boys/all-in-your-face/rebels "who don't play by your rules, man". The Avengers have the title "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" but "mighty" does not mean best/great/most loved.
    I think with the FF you're more likely to see them on the street than you are an Avenger but the Avegers get more high profile coverage as far as fighting villains and Supervillains than the FF do. And the Avengers got cosmic recognition from the Kree/Skrull War and the battle with the Builders during Infinity.

    I don't think the X-Men are "bad boys" or "rebels" so much as like Spider-Man where the general public view them more enigmatically and with more bias even though they ostensibly play by the same rules as the other heroes.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think the X-Men are "bad boys" or "rebels" so much as like Spider-Man where the general public view them more enigmatically and with more bias even though they ostensibly play by the same rules as the other heroes.
    Well they save the world that hates and fears them, so that makes a different spin than the FF and the Avengers.

    Some writers have run with the angle of the X-Men being the "mutants-for-normies" team who have gone mainstream compared to The Morlocks, or Magneto's Brotherhood and Acolytes. Krakoa though has changed that.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Agree that it's probably the FF. But if I'm living in the Marvel Universe and needed help from a team of supers, I'm turning to the Avengers.

  4. #19
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    It's the Avengers. While they have done things that should have destroyed their reputation in theory, they default to being the public's premiere champions the same way the X-Men default back to being persecuted even after doing things that, in theory, should have permanently improved their public standing. The Avengers are always one reset button away from being the adored public champions, at worst.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    It's the Avengers. While they have done things that should have destroyed their reputation in theory, they default to being the public's premiere champions the same way the X-Men default back to being persecuted even after doing things that, in theory, should have permanently improved their public standing. The Avengers are always one reset button away from being the adored public champions, at worst.
    The default of the Fantastic Four is the founders of the Marvel Universe, the "world's greatest team" and so on.

  6. #21
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    One thing to consider is that every single member of the Fantastic Four has been an Avenger.

    I won't go so far as to say the FF are considered a sub-division of the Avengers or anything... but more often than not in big events they do tend to sort of fall under the Avengers banner.

  7. #22
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well they save the world that hates and fears them, so that makes a different spin than the FF and the Avengers.

    Some writers have run with the angle of the X-Men being the "mutants-for-normies" team who have gone mainstream compared to The Morlocks, or Magneto's Brotherhood and Acolytes. Krakoa though has changed that.
    I think it's hard to argue the X-Men have operated pretty much as traditional Superheroes for the majority of their career, aside from specific instances where they had to really play hardball.
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    One thing to consider is that every single member of the Fantastic Four has been an Avenger.

    I won't go so far as to say the FF are considered a sub-division of the Avengers or anything... but more often than not in big events they do tend to sort of fall under the Avengers banner.
    A few major X-Men have been Avengers.

  8. #23
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    In universe, I could see the Avengers being more beloved amongst the general population while the FF gets more love from the superhero community itself.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    One thing to consider is that every single member of the Fantastic Four has been an Avenger.
    She-Hulk, Wolverine, Hulk, Ghost-Rider, Spider-Man have all been members of the Fantastic Four and the Future Foundation. That's just a few:

    here's the full roster
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...c_Four_members

    Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, Scott Lang/Ant-Man, Storm/Ororo Munroe, Black Panther have also been members.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not sure about that. Captain America has at times been controversial (for good and bad reasons). He's "loyal to nothing but the dream" so he has at times done stuff like say expose Richard Nixon as the head of the Secret Invasion and gone "Nomad". He was also the leader of the faction of CIVIL WAR i.e. Team Cap that somehow (and inexplicably) ended with the lower public opinion than Iron Man mostly because newscommenters felt knowing about myspace was more important to fight over than the Constitution. Then he died for a while, and came back later fought another civil war against Avengers during Time Runs Out, and then recently had the "Hydra Cap" thing which still stains his "good name" even if that was Stevil.

    In the case of Iron Man, he was an a--hole before he became a superhero, and after becoming a superhero is known for his alcoholic binges, his self-righteousness and so on.

    Thor...probably does have the best reputation on 616 Earth mostly because he's not always involved with Midgard. Captain Marvel is still somewhat new.



    Reed Richards is acknowledged and celebrated as the greatest scientist of 616. That hasn't changed one bit. Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm are universally beloved figures. Ben Grimm himself might be the most loved hero of 616. Susan Storm is an ex-Shield agent and highly respected as well.

    So the FF are just as much icons as they are celebrities.
    Captain America arguably has two advantages over everyone else. The first is that on a human level, he seems to be viewed similar to historical figures like MLK Jr. He is seen as this good-natured, almost saint-like person that did a lot of good and that is at the very least perceived as universally loved. At the very least no one would dare badmouth him in present day without presenting some serious evidence. Honestly, since Cap fought Nazis and there is no racial factor, it was arguably even more taboo to badmouth Steve Rogers for a while in the MU than it was to badmouth MLK. The second is propaganda and the fact everyone in the MU learns about him from a young age. Cap is like Uncle Sam in the sense that he is a blank canvas that anyone can project their values onto. Both gun-loving Trump supporters and leftist nerdy kids like me can see ourselves in Captain America, albeit for different reasons. There are many people in real-life who don't avidly keep up with superheroes but like Captain America because they think he is like Ultimate Captain America and not in spite of it, so the same is probably true in the MU. I don't know if the same can be said of any other Marvel hero, so for that reason he is probably the most respected.

    I do think the events you listed probably lowered his public approval rating during those stories, but from my experience is takes more than that to permanently change people's opinions. Cap would have to be consistently badmouthed to not only overwrite all the good he did in Modern Day but also 70 years of historic romanticization over him, and I don't know if he has been consistently badmouthed that way (I think of the X-Men and Spider-Man when I think "consistently badmouthed").
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 09-15-2020 at 06:33 PM.

  11. #26
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    She-Hulk, Wolverine, Hulk, Ghost-Rider, Spider-Man have all been members of the Fantastic Four and the Future Foundation. That's just a few:

    here's the full roster
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...c_Four_members

    Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, Scott Lang/Ant-Man, Storm/Ororo Munroe, Black Panther have also been members.
    True.

    THat said, I think in part because all of the FF have been Avengers at times in major cross overs the FF do sort of fall under the Avengers banner.

    So comparing both teams isn't quite apples and oranges. There's a bit of overlap.

  12. #27
    Incredible Member Laufeyson's Avatar
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    The most respected team in Marvel Universe as in comic would be the Fantastic Four. They are the Marvel's first family and first superhero team. They are rarely get bad publication unlike Avengers and generally accepted by people around the world unlike the X-Men. They are also feared and respected through cosmos, something that Avengers just recently earned.
    Akui, Kyōfu, Fun'nu, Zōo, Zetsubō, Tōsō, Satsui, Hametsu, Zetsumetsu, Metsubō

    PERFECT CONCLUSION: LEARNING END

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    True.

    THat said, I think in part because all of the FF have been Avengers at times in major cross overs the FF do sort of fall under the Avengers banner.

    So comparing both teams isn't quite apples and oranges. There's a bit of overlap.
    The Fantastic Four as a comic introduced and built the Marvel Universe...the Skrulls and the Kree, the Inhumans, Wakanda, Annihilus and the Negative Zone, Doctor Doom were all introduced in its pages. Likewise Namor of Atlantis was reinserted into Marvel Continuity in its page, and that set the stage for fellow Golden Ager like Cap to be thawed out of ice later.

    So the overlap has always been the Fantastic Four and the rest of the Marvel Universe and not with the Avengers per se. The Avengers don't really have a team identity and core theme unlike the F4 and the X-Men, so because they don't have a thematic idea it becomes "a newspaper of the MU" kind of theme, so that's why people see that overlap.

    It's true that there's never really been a big crossover event centered entirely on the Fantastic Four...Secret Wars 2015 is probably as close as it gets. But even EMPYRE is promoted jointly as a Fantastic Four and Avengers team-up, so while there's overlap there's also an acknowledgement of spheres of influence.

    To be honest, it's probably time for a Avengers v. F4 crossover story to set boundaries between the two to distinguish between them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Captain America arguably has two advantages over everyone else.
    Talking about Cap isn't the same as talking about Avengers. People can like Cap and not necessarily like the Avengers. Look at all the people who joined "Team Cap" in CIVIL WAR.

    Both gun-loving Trump supporters and leftist nerdy kids like me can see ourselves in Captain America, albeit for different reasons.
    The favorite hero of the former for quite a while has been Frank Castle, the Punisher...he has supplanted Cap for them.

    I do think the events you listed probably lowered his public approval rating during those stories, but from my experience is takes more than that to permanently change people's opinions. Cap would have to be consistently badmouthed to not only overwrite all the good he did in Modern Day but also 70 years of historic romanticization over him, and I don't know if he has been consistently badmouthed that way (I think of the X-Men and Spider-Man when I think "consistently badmouthed").
    Within the 616 Marvel Universe, Cap has had ups and downs. He went "Nomad" after taking down Nixon (although obviously it's no longer him as it was originally in Englehart's run). He went against the US Military in Daredevil Born Again, he was in-universe unpopular in CIVIL WAR (even if out-universe he was obviously in the right, by virtue of Team Iron Man creating N-Zone gulags with the aid of "useful idiot" Reed Richards), and obviously there's been a stigma to him as a result of "Hydra Cap". Within the mutant community (and also X-Men fans), Cap has always had tension because he represents American ideals but never speaks against the fact that his government has put into effect and enforced genocidal and racist policies against mutants. This dates as far back as SECRET WARS '84 Now as a reader you give a pass because obviously that's a case of the fact that the shared universe goes only so far...and Steve's fluctuating unpopularity actually makes this work in his favor.

    Steve Rogers is genuinely loved more than Tony and Thor are inside the 616 MU. Thor is respected and admired but he's also distant, remote and generally not on Earth so often. Tony Stark is admired for his brains and considered cool...but people who think someone's cool don't necessarily love those people. And Tony also has his critics, a lot of them justifiable, and obviously as a rich dude there are people who will dislike him for general principle (as they should).

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    FF doesn't have as big screw up like Avengers. I mean Civil War I and II, Secret Empire, All have Avengers members publicly screwing up majorly. The edge would probably go to FF imo

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think the X-Men are "bad boys" or "rebels" so much as like Spider-Man where the general public view them more enigmatically and with more bias even though they ostensibly play by the same rules as the other heroes.
    The X-men have been hunted multiple times by the government or Clash with the government. Off the top

    1. Krakoa(clash with government)
    2. Utopia(clash with government)
    3. After M-day- All the mutants were rounded up in camps
    4. Outback era- They were hiding from government???
    5. Operation Zero Tolerance-Government hunted them down
    6. Pre Hickman a government agency- was allowed to hunt them
    7. X-men Red-( clashed with government)
    8. The X-men clash with Avengers over Magneto back in the day

    They are more stuff, Plus M-pox and Phoenix Five stuff also didn't help their cause. The X-men is clearly in the camp of Rebels and I think Claremont's Xavier Security Forces attempt when they were UN sponsored and had badges and the begin of San Francisco era was last two times they have tried to be straight up heroes. We have more comic history with them as rebels than traditional superheroes at this point.The public has to see the government reactions to the X-men and their view point will be shaped by that.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-16-2020 at 01:46 AM.

  15. #30
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Fantastic Four as a comic introduced and built the Marvel Universe...the Skrulls and the Kree, the Inhumans, Wakanda, Annihilus and the Negative Zone, Doctor Doom were all introduced in its pages. Likewise Namor of Atlantis was reinserted into Marvel Continuity in its page, and that set the stage for fellow Golden Ager like Cap to be thawed out of ice later.

    So the overlap has always been the Fantastic Four and the rest of the Marvel Universe and not with the Avengers per se. The Avengers don't really have a team identity and core theme unlike the F4 and the X-Men, so because they don't have a thematic idea it becomes "a newspaper of the MU" kind of theme, so that's why people see that overlap.

    It's true that there's never really been a big crossover event centered entirely on the Fantastic Four...Secret Wars 2015 is probably as close as it gets. But even EMPYRE is promoted jointly as a Fantastic Four and Avengers team-up, so while there's overlap there's also an acknowledgement of spheres of influence.

    To be honest, it's probably time for a Avengers v. F4 crossover story to set boundaries between the two to distinguish between them.



    Talking about Cap isn't the same as talking about Avengers. People can like Cap and not necessarily like the Avengers. Look at all the people who joined "Team Cap" in CIVIL WAR.



    The favorite hero of the former for quite a while has been Frank Castle, the Punisher...he has supplanted Cap for them.



    Within the 616 Marvel Universe, Cap has had ups and downs. He went "Nomad" after taking down Nixon (although obviously it's no longer him as it was originally in Englehart's run). He went against the US Military in Daredevil Born Again, he was in-universe unpopular in CIVIL WAR (even if out-universe he was obviously in the right, by virtue of Team Iron Man creating N-Zone gulags with the aid of "useful idiot" Reed Richards), and obviously there's been a stigma to him as a result of "Hydra Cap". Within the mutant community (and also X-Men fans), Cap has always had tension because he represents American ideals but never speaks against the fact that his government has put into effect and enforced genocidal and racist policies against mutants. This dates as far back as SECRET WARS '84 Now as a reader you give a pass because obviously that's a case of the fact that the shared universe goes only so far...and Steve's fluctuating unpopularity actually makes this work in his favor.

    Steve Rogers is genuinely loved more than Tony and Thor are inside the 616 MU. Thor is respected and admired but he's also distant, remote and generally not on Earth so often. Tony Stark is admired for his brains and considered cool...but people who think someone's cool don't necessarily love those people. And Tony also has his critics, a lot of them justifiable, and obviously as a rich dude there are people who will dislike him for general principle (as they should).
    I don't dispute the contribution the FF made to marvel and the industry itself ... its massive. And they deserve every bit of credit they get in that regard.

    That said ... Empyre was an Avengers event which just happened to have the FF in it. Yes, the FF did have the name on the cover (which is a first in an event in awhile) and was jointly written by the FF writer ... but I don't think anyone who read it felt like it was an FF event. And its not just that event ... FF hasn't really had that strong a presence in marvel in decades. That's not a diss ... just saying. If Empyre was an attempt at changing that, it was a fail.

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