Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[The Darknight Detective]

Honestly, i've always considered that a remarkably stupid argument. It's complaining that a cyborg character is actually.. .y'know.. a cyborg. Historical precedent is getting in the way of the actual character. Nobody complains that Robocop doesn't have sex. The same things happen to white characters as happen to black characters... but somehow one is character development and the other is racism...

The very argument that Cyborg being a black character 'doesn't count' or 'isn't black enough' because he isn't having sex with everyone is just insane. And honestly, if Johns told Ray that... i'd still back Johns. If Johns was backing the need for cyborg to be 'intact'... then i'd back Ray.

It's part of what makes cyborg characters so tragic... the knowledge that they were human, but now... aren't. ugghh....

Quite frankly, the theory (at least on this site) always smacked of a way to negate Cyborg's blackness in order for him to be replaced by the poster's favorite African-American of choice on the Justice League. It should also be noted some posters here have been banned for going that route, too.

[Nite-Wing]

Cyborg never used to be so inhuman akin to robocop
a cyborg is supposed to be a human with robot parts not overwhelming the human side
What Johns has done in JL and the comics is turn cyborg into android

The portrayal on doom patrol is far closer to what wolfman and perez did and what johns has done to the character at various times shows how he has stripped the humanity from victor
I mean what's the point of grid? To show Victor can lose his humanity at any point now, all the time? He only ever used to worry about that when he got hurt during NTT

Now he gets blown up or torn apart all the time
I don't care about him being connected to the internet or having apocolips tech and being able to boom tube teleport etc

As far as Ray is concerned Johns shouldn't be telling him about the black experience because he would definitely have more of a valid opinion than him. The argument seems more of the booyah stuff
Ray feels like this character should be more which is admirable but of course he'd butt heads with Johns who basically takes anything Ray says as an attack on the work he's done with that very character

[The Darknight Detective]

Cyborg never used to be so inhuman akin to robocop
a cyborg is supposed to be a human with robot parts not overwhelming the human side
What Johns has done in JL and the comics is turn cyborg into android

That's not correct. C3PO is an android, but Vic is unquestionably a cyborg.

[Johnny]

I don't really see what the big deal about this is tbh. Fisher previously described Johns as an abhorrent racist, which I'm not sure can be used to describe someone who at worst comes off as foolish for trying to lecture a black man about black masculinity. It's ignorant, but is it really abhorrent. And this appears to be more about the creative issues Ray had and I imagine he brought that up to Johns so they they had another useless argument. I'm not sure if a day went by on that set during those reshoots where people were not on each other's throats about something.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't really see what the big deal about this is tbh. Fisher previously described Johns as an abhorrent racist, which I'm not sure can be used to describe someone who at worst comes off as foolish for trying to lecture a black man about black masculinity. It's ignorant, but is it really abhorrent. And this appears to be more about the creative issues Ray had and I imagine he brought that up to Johns so they they had another useless argument. I'm not sure if a day went by on that set during those reshoots where people were not on each other's throats about something.

I don't even understand how they'd have the time or energy to argue given how much work they had to do during those reshoots. From the latest accounting, Whedon reshot two thirds of Justice League in a matter of weeks. While there are few who are singing the praises of Whedon's cut, the fact that it isn't an unwatchable mess is pretty remarkable.

[Thezmage]

I do believe that the issue of the pseudo/real emasculation of black men in comic books is a real issue that is worth getting into, and having that context makes this whole thing hit differently than it would if we did not have that context. I suspect that the phrasing of that tweet was divorced from that context for a reason.

More importantly, what is it doing coming up during the making of this film? Did Ray want a reference to Cyborg's genitals to be included to make sure it was established that he had one? Or that he didn't? Was there supposed to be a reference to Cyborg's junk being missing in the film that Ray didn't want? Or one he did?

Honestly, I think my sympathy is most likely to lie with whoever wants to keep references to Cyborg's genitals out of the movie. It's an issue but it's an issue that has existed as long as Cyborg has. The Justice League movie is not the place to address the subject.

Was there a reference to Cyborg's lack (or presence) of genitals in the theatrical cut of the movie?

[Lightning Rider]

I do believe that the issue of the pseudo/real emasculation of black men in comic books is a real issue that is worth getting into, and having that context makes this whole thing hit differently than it would if we did not have that context. I suspect that the phrasing of that tweet was divorced from that context for a reason.

More importantly, what is it doing coming up during the making of this film? Did Ray want a reference to Cyborg's genitals to be included to make sure it was established that he had one? Or that he didn't? Was there supposed to be a reference to Cyborg's junk being missing in the film that Ray didn't want? Or one he did?

Honestly, I think my sympathy is most likely to lie with whoever wants to keep references to Cyborg's genitals out of the movie. It's an issue but it's an issue that has existed as long as Cyborg has. The Justice League movie is not the place to address the subject.

Was there a reference to Cyborg's lack (or presence) of genitals in the theatrical cut of the movie?

This is wild speculation, but I wonder if there was a hint of a romantic relationship originally shot, like him flirting with a cheerleader during a game, or a line where Cyborg says something like "I can't ever make love again...feel the grass between my toes...even shake someone's hand and feel it..." or something.

[Sodam Yat]

So Fishers finally bringing specifics up re Johns, and all I can say is yikes

https://mobile.twitter.com/ray8fishe...43265421664263

What Ray Fisher said there is no different than what posters said on this forum a while back and some others disagreed with said posters (respectfully). I'm glad he brought that up.

See, I KNEW it was something wrong with this Geoff Johns guy when it came to certain black characters. People called me crazy, but I'm glad this is finally being put at the spotlight. I hope he doesn't EVER get a higher position at DC. EVER!

[Holt]

The discussion of Cyborg being literally castrated and emasculated is a valid complaint, IMO, especially with the tone deafness of them trying to push him as DC's #1 big time black hero at the time. I have no idea what the context of the conversion with Johns was, though, but I can say I specifically found that choice cringe worthy for years.

[Jcogginsa]

Honestly, i've always considered that a remarkably stupid argument. It's complaining that a cyborg character is actually.. .y'know.. a cyborg. Historical precedent is getting in the way of the actual character. Nobody complains that Robocop doesn't have sex. The same things happen to white characters as happen to black characters... but somehow one is character development and the other is racism...

Because context matters.

[phantom1592]

Because context matters.

Not really. It only matters when you force it to. Nobody is creating these characters with the intent to emasculate the entire black culture. It's done to this particular character to separate them from their humanity and to make them feel like an outcast. POSSIBLY trying to connect with the teenage population who for whatever reason ALSO feel like outcasts...

It's an insanely common trope. Anyone from Robocop to Swamp Thing to Green Lantern when he finds himself made of green energy to people who's body's have been destroyed and now they're all energy... it's insanely common. If anything it's cliche. When it happens to a black character it doesn't mean any more than when it happens to anyone else. Except... Someone decided there should be more black characters.

No kids are watching Teen Titans Go watching Cyborg become a tank or something and going 'Wait.... are they emasculating the black culture?!? ' No... they're looking at it and saying 'AWESOME!!! He can become a TANK!!!!"

And really that's the reason he gets more and more 'human' parts missing.... because like ALL comic characters new writers are always interested in giving people a power upgrade and removing weaknesses. Honestly it's something I always hate, I find the weaknesses help define the characters... but Yellow won't be a weakness, Batman will literally outthink god..., Aquaman loses his 'hour out of water' weakness... and yeah, Cyborg's powers all come from the robot half... so he's going to be more and MORE Robot while his human parts are cast to the side.

No bigger context than that. Honestly no more thought than that by the creators. Talk like this is only going to make people NOT WANT to include black or minority characters anymore. If I can use Cyborg in a story or Swamp Thing in a story to the same effect, but the 'black' character drags in tons of people complaining about imagined context and criticizing over nothing... Screw it, I'm using the 'white' character. It'll get to the point where 'only' black people will write black characters and that is not going to end well for any kind of diversity.

[Jcogginsa]

Not really. .

Yes really.

People who work in the creative industry have a responsibility to not perpetuate harmful stereotypes and ideas.

[Johnny]

Yes really.

People who work in the creative industry have a responsibility to not perpetuate harmful stereotypes and ideas.

Well by this logic there should never be a movie where any form of crime is being committed by a character who happens to be a poc, or a story that involves any form of harassment or abuse ever again. Let's handcuff the entire entertainment industry because we're offended by what we perceive certain characters to perpetuate.

[John Venus]

Well by this logic there should never be a movie where any form of crime is being committed by a character who happens to be a poc, or a story that involves any form of harassment or abuse ever again. Let's handcuff the entire entertainment industry because we're offended by what we perceive certain characters to perpetuate.

The problem is imbalance. If any time you have a poc character and they are only depicted as a criminal which inevitably bleeds into the RL perception of those groups, then that's a problem. Diversity isn't about narrowing story telling opportunities but widening them.

[Johnny]

The problem is imbalance. If any time you have a poc character and they are only depicted as a criminal which inevitably bleeds into the RL perception of those groups, then that's a problem. Diversity isn't about narrowing story telling opportunities but widening them.

Remember what Joaquin Phoenix went through when he was promoting Joker. That character is by all accounts one of the worst stereotypes for white men. A loner who's down on his luck and blames society for all of his problems. The media was basically salivating at the idea of the movie perpetuating violence. They couldn't stop associating it with school shootings and violent incel stereotypes and yet Joker ended up making more bank than either BvS or Justice League. The point being that many of those comic book characters can be perceived to have some form of negative influence, yet they can all be successful provided they're handled by the right people. Todd Phillips was the right person to handle Joker. Whedon, Snyder or Johns were not the right people to handle Cyborg.