Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[BatmanJones]

Agreed, there wasn't any conscious racism at play here from the sounds of it.

Has anyone said there was? Racism is a very broad word and most of its current connotations are not about "conscious" racism. It's the unconscious racism we're working on now. A conscious racist wouldn't last very long in Hollywood today.

[skyvolt2000]

I'm not seeing anything damning here regarding Hamada or Johns, so it's back to the drawing board for Ray.

It did what it was suppose to do RILE UP the usual suspects. Who THINK via emotion rather than common sense and got AGENDAS.
Along with those who can find more FUEL to the fire.

Geoff took it upon himself to put Cyborg in the Justice League comics in the first place and has written more about the character than any other individual except for the creator. He loves the character Cyborg."

It does not matter how many issues you write with Cyborg. It's about HOW you use him.

David Walker in ONE issue of Cyborg did more than Johns in 5 years.
John Sempter Jr did MORE to expand Cyborg's world with Exxy in 3 issues than Johns did in 5.
In REALITY Luke Cormican & Peter Rida Michail have written Cyborg more than Johns-(writers for Teen Titans Go!)

With all that in mind, what’s the right thing to do? Ray wanted to preserve Snyder’s take on Cyborg, troubling as it could be. Does Ray’s desires overrule other black fans complaints?

A better question is HOW did this even become a conversation? Where would that fit in the script? Only place it would fit is we see a diagram of Cyborg and where his cyborg parts are.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm against race bending in general, but yeah, you can't claim "continuity" for one character, while changing others.

Johns didn’t claim it was a continuity thing, he said audiences would be expecting Superman's grandfather to look like someone related to Henry Cavill, which is not an unreasonable point of view. Zod wasn't revealed until much later in the show, so there would be no such confusion.

In the end, it made no difference as Krypton’s first episode was so dull that most viewers jumped ship. I don't think having a black star would have fixed that.

[skyvolt2000]

Agreed, there wasn't any conscious racism at play here from the sounds of it. Whedon, Johns, & Berg were too preoccupied with trying to satisfy the ridiculous mandates of Tsujihara to even consider race beyond their notion that having an angry black man at the center of their $300 million gamble was too big a risk.

Frankly, Fisher didn’t appreciate the situation that Johns and Berg were saddled with, who were similarly insensitive to how the rug had been pulled out from under Fisher.

Well the issue is Cyborg was the center because of WHAT was inside him. Johns wrote that story in the comics.

That Mother Box MADE him the center. If they did not want that-guess what don't approve that script.

If they didn't want that-have parts of that Mother Box fall into each member's hand and they put them together.

Or give Cyborg his OLD origin or a better one without that Mother Box.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Has anyone said there was? Racism is a very broad word and most of its current connotations are not about "conscious" racism. It's the unconscious racism we're working on now. A conscious racist wouldn't last very long in Hollywood today.

Definitely. Everyone has their own biases and hang ups, but I fail to see how Fisher's behavior has helped.

People tend to get defensive when they are publicly called out as racists. While I don't think Johns or Berg were blameless here (and I give credit to Berg for privately calling Fisher up to apologize), I don't think Fisher is blameless either.

Nobody in this situation handled it right.

[Ra-El]

I don't see why WB would fire Johns now, beyond the public opinion, because everything Fisher said and more surely come up during the investigation and they knew Fisher would talk sooner or later.

But the real question is: What did Hamada do? He wasn't running DC at the time, he was working in WB horror movies and only come into the picture after JL was already released. It seems like Fisher main complain is that Hamada didn't back him up?

Anyway, as long as the Snyder Cut remain dead I'm fine.

[Thezmage]

A better question is HOW did this even become a conversation? Where would that fit in the script? Only place it would fit is we see a diagram of Cyborg and where his cyborg parts are.

I could think of a number of ways. A comment either from his father or to his father about how grandkids are or are not a possibility anymore. Somebody calls him a eunuch and he corrects them. Somebody makes a comment about him having a big gun and he says "you should see the one in my pants."

They're all clumsy and cringy, but they would fit in the plot and not break the immersion too much

[BlueRuggo]

Johns told Fisher he should play the character less like Frankenstein and more like the kindhearted Quasimodo. Fisher says that in order to demonstrate the look he wanted, Johns dipped his shoulder in what struck Fisher as a servile posture.

LOL. I mean, really.

[Kaijudo]

I have no lost love for Johns as a (current) writer, but I do agree with what some people have said here that I don't think he's an overt, intentional racist like the "burn it all down" Twitterverse wants to portray him as. As BatmanJones said, I think it's likely down to inadvertent microaggressions that Fisher reacted to, which everyone has, including me in earlier posts in this thread when Fisher was being a bit more nebulous about what exactly went down. Whether Fisher wasn't able to convey this in a way Johns understood or Johns's ego wouldn't let him view himself as possibly doing this, I can't say. I also think it is easy to have a "hill to die on" when it comes to creative vision, so both parties were fighting for what they thought was right, Fisher via what the Snyder version he signed up for was going to be, Johns via his history with the character in other mediums.

Ultimately, I don't want Johns cancelled, even though I think the defense his reps put out today only exacerbated that as a possibility. Ideally this would be a rock-bottom moment for Johns where he realizes how his actions were perceived, admits to as much while still making sure it's known it's not behavior he would ever intentionally engage in, and then effing LEARNS AND GROWS from it. It's a different ballpark but I compare it to Dan Harmon, when he was called out by a woman working on (I think) Community or somewhere. He pretty much did a mea culpa that his behavior was bad, he didn't necessarily realize how it was impacting the woman until that moment, and he did the work to make sure it was a learning experience. And he bounced back. But so many of these guys double-down on their claims that there's no way they could ever be involved with something like this, not even realizing they might not know they're involved with something like that, and it ultimately makes their situation a billion times worse. It's not so much Johns saving himself from the Fisher situation, it's learning from it so there isn't another Fisher situation down the road.

[BlueRuggo]

I have no lost love for Johns as a (current) writer, but I do agree with what some people have said here that I don't think he's an overt, intentional racist like the "burn it all down" Twitterverse wants to portray him as. As BatmanJones said, I think it's likely down to inadvertent microaggressions that Fisher reacted to, which everyone has, including me in earlier posts in this thread when Fisher was being a bit more nebulous about what exactly went down. Whether Fisher wasn't able to convey this in a way Johns understood or Johns's ego wouldn't let him view himself as possibly doing this, I can't say. I also think it is easy to have a "hill to die on" when it comes to creative vision, so both parties were fighting for what they thought was right, Fisher via what the Snyder version he signed up for was going to be, Johns via his history with the character in other mediums.

Ultimately, I don't want Johns cancelled, even though I think the defense his reps put out today only exacerbated that as a possibility. Ideally this would be a rock-bottom moment for Johns where he realizes how his actions were perceived, admits to as much while still making sure it's known it's not behavior he would ever intentionally engage in, and then effing LEARNS AND GROWS from it. It's a different ballpark but I compare it to Dan Harmon, when he was called out by a woman working on (I think) Community or somewhere. He pretty much did a mea culpa that his behavior was bad, he didn't necessarily realize how it was impacting the woman until that moment, and he did the work to make sure it was a learning experience. And he bounced back. But so many of these guys double-down on their claims that there's no way they could ever be involved with something like this, not even realizing they might not know they're involved with something like that, and it ultimately makes their situation a billion times worse. It's not so much Johns saving himself from the Fisher situation, it's learning from it so there isn't another Fisher situation down the road.

People keep speculating about Johns, which is hilarious, because all signs point to Ray Fisher being very difficult to work with and entitled. Creative control is something that actors earn over years of working in the industry and it is offered as a courtesy, not a guarantee. But if Fisher had his way, he'd have written every one of Cyborg's lines.

Johns is in the clear, in my book. Fisher on the other hand will go down in the books as someone who is more trouble than he is worth, and he has earned himself a very toxic reputation in Hollywood. The film industry is a small world and filmmakers would be wise to avoid him. He is a troublemaker.

[Lightning Rider]

People keep speculating about Johns, which is hilarious, because all signs point to Ray Fisher being very difficult to work with and entitled. Creative control is something that actors earn over years of working in the industry and it is offered as a courtesy, not a guarantee. But if Fisher had his way, he'd have written every one of Cyborg's lines.

Johns is in the clear, in my book. Fisher on the other hand will go down in the books as someone who is more trouble than he is worth, and he has earned himself a very toxic reputation in Hollywood. The film industry is a small world and filmmakers would be wise to avoid him. He is a troublemaker.

Yeah I don't think this really the takeaway, lol.

[Frontier]

In the end, it made no difference as Krypton’s first episode was so dull that most viewers jumped ship. I don't think having a black star would have fixed that.

Was the show guaranteed two season to begin with? Did I misunderstand it as being remotely popular?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I have no lost love for Johns as a (current) writer, but I do agree with what some people have said here that I don't think he's an overt, intentional racist like the "burn it all down" Twitterverse wants to portray him as. As BatmanJones said, I think it's likely down to inadvertent microaggressions that Fisher reacted to, which everyone has, including me in earlier posts in this thread when Fisher was being a bit more nebulous about what exactly went down. Whether Fisher wasn't able to convey this in a way Johns understood or Johns's ego wouldn't let him view himself as possibly doing this, I can't say. I also think it is easy to have a "hill to die on" when it comes to creative vision, so both parties were fighting for what they thought was right, Fisher via what the Snyder version he signed up for was going to be, Johns via his history with the character in other mediums.

Ultimately, I don't want Johns cancelled, even though I think the defense his reps put out today only exacerbated that as a possibility. Ideally this would be a rock-bottom moment for Johns where he realizes how his actions were perceived, admits to as much while still making sure it's known it's not behavior he would ever intentionally engage in, and then effing LEARNS AND GROWS from it. It's a different ballpark but I compare it to Dan Harmon, when he was called out by a woman working on (I think) Community or somewhere. He pretty much did a mea culpa that his behavior was bad, he didn't necessarily realize how it was impacting the woman until that moment, and he did the work to make sure it was a learning experience. And he bounced back. But so many of these guys double-down on their claims that there's no way they could ever be involved with something like this, not even realizing they might not know they're involved with something like that, and it ultimately makes their situation a billion times worse. It's not so much Johns saving himself from the Fisher situation, it's learning from it so there isn't another Fisher situation down the road.

Agreed. Dan Harmon's handling of his own past mistakes is the best example of how to handle something like this. You don't dig in, you stop and listen, and try to re-evaluate your own actions, then you try to make them right. For his part, it sounds like Berg has done that. Given how viciously Fisher's attacked Johns publicly, I can understand why John isn't really ready to be quite so conciliatory, but I think it would honestly be the best choice for him. He should call up Fisher and simple talk and listen to what the man has to say and apologize for any offence he may have given, whether intentional or not. If Fisher's gracious enough, perhaps he'll begin to understand Johns' perspective more, too. Throwing bombs at each other through Twitter and PR teams is certainly not the way to solve this.

[Ra-El]

Was the show guaranteed two season to begin with? Did I misunderstand it as being remotely popular?

I think the key thing here is Rege-Jean Page, he is at the moment bigger than Krypton, and already sites are running articles about how Geoff Johns cut him off from playing Seg-El because he was black. That's the main thing about Krypton and the main reason it was mentioned, imo.

[Nite-Wing]

Johns in his infinite power as DC CCO said that Superman couldn't have a black grandfather because reasons(mostly being continuity apparently which is ridic) but then the show Krypton proceeded to cast a black general zod making his statements facetious and a lie
Its stuff like that which make it incredibly hard for someone auditioning for a role on a TV show not to think he just didn't want a black lead on krypton
Now said actor is in a highly coveted position in Hollywood and likely to be the next Black Panther. You can't make for a bigger mess

He deserves his dragging on social media for that and the terrible PR campaign relying on hiding behind POC's

Everything else regarding Ray Fisher is just not as bad as what whedon has done imo
It is hilarious to see how Ray Fisher who is supposed to have no career and be blackballed is continuing to keep this story out there and allow it to keep snowballing into something even bigger

Methinks maybe if they had just tried to squash the beef with him all of this could have been avoided