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  1. #1231
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    These characters are for children at the end of the day
    If Cyborg was always regarded as like he was in Teen Titans or TTG then I have no problem with this. He would be akin to a little bill or craig from the creek There's nothing for a child to look for in regards to harmful interpretations of media in that way
    if the character is marketed towards adults like the majority of these characters in comic books then it's time to have a different type of discussion

    For a long time DC and Marvel and even indy publishers got away with a lot
    DC has a long history of not being conscious of their minority heroes
    I wouldn't doubt Johns isn't conscious of this at all because he's for the majority of his career avoided using minority heroes. For Ray Fisher to challenge him its sort of like Cyborg figuratively coming out of the page and questioning why he's doing this to him.

  2. #1232
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    These characters are for children at the end of the day
    That was the case a long time ago, but the comics have been geared towards adults since the '90s. Live action it's closer to all-ages.

    I would also say that Cyborg was created for the teens of my generation, so he really wasn't kiddie fare.
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  3. #1233
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah; as bad as the optics of the conversation apparently happening in the first place are, we have zero context or information of what happened, beyond Fisher telling us that this's why Johns is a bad person.
    I'm kind of having flashbacks of the "he lightened actors skin tones in post-production" thing, and it being the one thing Whedon's team shot down almost immediately.

    It's definitely something that has the potential to be a very bad look for Johns. But if you're saying this much, why not say specifically what Johns' stance was on it instead of leaving it up to assumption? Just rephrased slightly or a follow up tweet would clear up a lot. It's vague when it doesn't have to be.

  4. #1234
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    I mean the conversation most likely started up because there was a reference to Cyborg either having or not having genitalia that was being either added or removed by Johns/Joss that Ray fought them on.

    This conversation could have gone many different ways. As ridiculous as it is to imagine conversations based on limited context and assign blame based on that, Johns comes off a lot worse if he's saying "let's keep the reference to Cyborg's dicklessness in, nobody will be offended" than if he's saying "Let's not address the Cyborg penis situation directly, people will be offended if the only black member of the team is symbolically emasculated"

    Frankly, I'm still quite suspicious of the way that Ray doesn't include details in any of his accusations, and this is no exception. It's clearly meant to imply that Johns just came up to Ray and started talking about his penis unprompted

    EDIT: I still think that this could all be a matter of Johns simply telling Ray that, regardless of whether you're right or wrong, calling attention to injustices in this industry is going to hurt your future career.
    Last edited by Thezmage; 02-25-2021 at 01:24 PM.

  5. #1235
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    These characters are for children at the end of the day
    If Cyborg was always regarded as like he was in Teen Titans or TTG then I have no problem with this. He would be akin to a little bill or craig from the creek There's nothing for a child to look for in regards to harmful interpretations of media in that way
    if the character is marketed towards adults like the majority of these characters in comic books then it's time to have a different type of discussion

    For a long time DC and Marvel and even indy publishers got away with a lot
    DC has a long history of not being conscious of their minority heroes
    I wouldn't doubt Johns isn't conscious of this at all because he's for the majority of his career avoided using minority heroes. For Ray Fisher to challenge him its sort of like Cyborg figuratively coming out of the page and questioning why he's doing this to him.
    He was the one that introduced Jackson Hyde in Brightest Day and Ya' Wara who played an important part in one of his most famous arcs in Aquaman. So not sure that avoiding minority characters can be applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm kind of having flashbacks of the "he lightened actors skin tones in post-production" thing, and it being the one thing Whedon's team shot down almost immediately.

    It's definitely something that has the potential to be a very bad look for Johns. But if you're saying this much, why not say specifically what Johns' stance was on it instead of leaving it up to assumption? Just rephrased slightly or a follow up tweet would clear up a lot. It's vague when it doesn't have to be.
    Now someone will bring up he can't because of NDA - as if it applies on the sausage of Cyborg.
    Last edited by Goldrake; 02-25-2021 at 01:34 PM.

  6. #1236
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    He was the one that introduced Jackson Hyde in Brightest Day and Ya' Wara who played an important part in one of his most famous arcs in Aquaman. So not sure that avoiding minority characters can be applied.
    True but we never got to see that version of Jackson.

    He does not avoid them-I would say mileage various on actual usage. Especially with Dc's editors at the time.


    Now someone will bring up he can't because of NDA - as if it applies on the sausage of Cyborg.
    If you have been this bad and BOLD-don't toss up NDA.

    Because where would genitals come up in any conversation?

    Especially considering Doom Patrol Cyborg HAD sex or at least it was implied he did something and was show pulling up his pants in season 2.

  7. #1237
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    True but we never got to see that version of Jackson.

    He does not avoid them-I would say mileage various on actual usage. Especially with Dc's editors at the time.




    If you have been this bad and BOLD-don't toss up NDA.

    Because where would genitals come up in any conversation?

    Especially considering Doom Patrol Cyborg HAD sex or at least it was implied he did something and was show pulling up his pants in season 2.
    He wanted to bring Jackson in his Aquaman and Lorena as well, and he mentioned that in an interview with cbr September 2011, but remember his run was cut short, it ends with bringing up the rise of the 7 kingdoms as next chapter. That was never to be.

  8. #1238
    Fantastic Member Hol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Kent View Post
    That's a great idea, and you should be the first to do so and let us all know how it's done. Let us know what secrets Ray Fisher has in his closet, we'll wait.
    Wish I had the funding man because it would be fun as hell.

  9. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    He was the one that introduced Jackson Hyde in Brightest Day and Ya' Wara who played an important part in one of his most famous arcs in Aquaman. So not sure that avoiding minority characters can be applied.



    Now someone will bring up he can't because of NDA - as if it applies on the sausage of Cyborg.
    Geoff John’s is the one who fought for Starfire being a colored woman

  10. #1240
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    Not trying to be a cheerleader for the guy, but he made Mr Terrific the breakout star of JSA.

  11. #1241
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    As typical with Johns he will create something but never use it substantially and because of that many of those characters are in limbo currently. If he put as much effort into them as say Flash or Aquaman we'd be in a different landscape at DC

    aqualad was even something he saw from YJ production and rushed to introduce in the DCU and do nothing with it
    Hell even Cyborg isn't looking so good now

    I'll give Bendis credit he seems committed to the new characters he creates

  12. #1242

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    Did Game of Thrones have any controversy with the Greyworm character? He was one of the more prominent black characters in the show particularly in latter seasons and like the rest of the unsullied, did not have his "pillar and stones."
    Not dismissing Fisher entirely on this but we saw the extent of Cyborg's mutilation in BvS before either version of Justice League. But honestly, whether he's a eunuch or not, Cyborg is always physically mutilated in an extreme way. And its not a good look when all the white people in the league are these physically perfect sexy alpha males and females. And the one body horror character, is the black guy. People on this thread say its an inappropriate conversation to have, but it seems worth having. I see some troubling implications but I'm not sure if a line was crossed. I'd argue even if Victor still had all his "equipment" bellow the belt, he'd still have been a messy choice for this particular team.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 02-25-2021 at 02:47 PM.

  13. #1243
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    As typical with Johns he will create something but never use it substantially and because of that many of those characters are in limbo currently. If he put as much effort into them as say Flash or Aquaman we'd be in a different landscape at DC

    aqualad was even something he saw from YJ production and rushed to introduce in the DCU and do nothing with it
    Hell even Cyborg isn't looking so good now

    I'll give Bendis credit he seems committed to the new characters he creates
    he wanted to use Aqualad only his run was cut short by didio and not just jackson he wanted to bring also Lorena.

  14. #1244
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    As typical with Johns he will create something but never use it substantially and because of that many of those characters are in limbo currently. If he put as much effort into them as say Flash or Aquaman we'd be in a different landscape at DC

    aqualad was even something he saw from YJ production and rushed to introduce in the DCU and do nothing with it
    Hell even Cyborg isn't looking so good now

    I'll give Bendis credit he seems committed to the new characters he creates
    That is because Bendis is all about that TV and Movie money. Why else do you think he pushes his own creations so hard. Why do you think all his characters are created to be as PC friendly as possible. He is all about that cash. Bendis does not care one bit about comics.

  15. #1245
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Geoff John’s is the one who fought for Starfire being a colored woman
    I did not know that.

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