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  1. #781
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    Accused of what? I have little doubt that Johns can be a dick, hell, he was a bit of a prick to me whenever I met him at various cons, there’s a difference between being a dick and a racist. Without an actual incident to refer to, this just reads like “man was mean to me and I wasn’t prepared for it”

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    I'm not seeing anything specific here, aside from Diane Nelson making vague insinuations.

    There's nothing concrete there like there was with Warren Ellis, who had dozens upon dozens of young women all telling the same story of a sad old man using his power and prestige to take advantage of them and then discard them when he was done.

    For DC to go as far as removing Johns from previously solicited stories, there would have to be something a whole lot more specific than what Fisher and Nelson have managed thus far.

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    Accused of what? I have little doubt that Johns can be a dick, hell, he was a bit of a prick to me whenever I met him at various cons, there’s a difference between being a dick and a racist. Without an actual incident to refer to, this just reads like “man was mean to me and I wasn’t prepared for it”
    Bingo.

    The burden of proof needs to be higher than vague accusations on Twitter, but lower than outright dismissing something that multiple people have confirmed happened on set and an independent investigation concluded needed to be resolved.

    Remember, guys, only Sith deal in absolutes
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 01-14-2021 at 03:19 AM.

  4. #784
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    So that means this entire Fisher/Johns saga is over at least for now?

  5. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    So that means this entire Fisher/Johns saga is over at least for now?
    Not as long as keeps generating clickbait...

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    In that sense yes. The main problems seem to stem from someone (Joss) being power hungry and wanting to assert himself as top dog of the film and the frustrations he had "cleaning up" Snyders "mess".
    Um...he was top dog on that movie. "Power hungry?" I doubt it. Say he was a bit of a dick and I'll believe it. But remember, this was a guy called in to "fix" a very troubled production by a guy who never should have been given it, a guy with a wildly different vision for the movie than either Whedon himself, or some nameless studio execs of the sort who often ruin movies. And he had a short deadline, both to rewrite the thing, and shoot new footage to suit the rewrite, and try and edit it into submission. And all the stress was on him to deliver. I think the more experienced members of the principle cast, (which was all the rest of the cast), understood they were in a horror show, and just rode the wave, hoping not to drown. Fisher I think was expecting a great workplace, and probably got a decent one under Snyder, who after all wasn't working under the intense pressure that Whedon was from panicking studio execs.

    So yes, there was probably shouting and the like, and there in an ideal world wouldn't be, but it is the way it is. Sadly it seems from history that making movies can be pleasant, not great but not terrible, or a nightmare. With directors who have a hell of a bigger name than either Whedon or Snyder being among the most shocking offenders. Fisher really should have understood that,

    Bottom line is after all this time, Fisher still hasn't come up with any specifics to his charges, no "this is exactly what happened on this day of shooting", and no evidence to back any of his talk up. Absent that, there's no reason to believe Whedon was anything other than his usual jerk self, albeit under much higher than normal pressure.

  7. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    But it's not just Fisher anymore. Mamoa backed him up, and Gadot confirmed she had issues with Whedon that needed to be resolved. Kevin Smith also talked to crew members who reported that Justice League was a $#!*show under Whedon. And the false Frosty the Snowman article would indicate that someone at Warner Bros. was scared enough about Fisher's accusations that they needed to distract from them.

    This isn't to say that everything Fisher's said should be considered gospel, but there's enough smoke that I'm pretty sure that there was a fire, even if we don't know how big of one there might have been (and likely never will).
    Mamoa wasn't specific about anything AFAIK, just that he wasn't happy about some dealings with WB. And vague support for someone who I assume is a friend. Gadot...who even knows what her beef was? However, given Whedon's history, I'd buy something off with his conduct to her much more than I'd buy any racism or whatever Fisher is alleging today on Whedon's part. The smoke here was probably a combination of Fisher's bitterness at having his big break taken from him, (in his mind), and his not knowing what to expect on a big production with a lot of hopes riding on it when everything goes south. Yeah, I'm sure it was hard, and unpleasant, but the guy was an adult and signed up willingly, and work isn't always fun. Mostly it's not, I've observed.

    The thing is, Fisher was always marginal as an actor; there are hundreds of more talented and charismatic actors who fit his exact niche; so he was lucky to even get cast. If he'd just shut up about his disappointment rather than wage a rather underhanded Twitter war against...whoever he felt aggrieved by that day; he still could have pulled of a minor career in TV or streaming as a supporting actor. But by doing all this, he gained nothing. Not salvaging that career, not looking good to the public, and not accomplishing any of his vaguely stated goals. If he'd sued...whoever...he'd have at least been able to present his case, assuming he has one. Nor do I think NDAs cover actual misconduct, at least not when examined by a judge. Regardless, if he'd even disclosed any evidence he had on Twitter or wherever, it would have at least compelled WB to conduct a open investigation, and depending on what he was alleging, (and I still have no idea what that is), even a criminal investigation.

    I can think of at least a dozen explanations for the Frosty thing, with most of them due to incompetence, miscommunication, and other unfortunate but not malicious or suspicious behavior. Who cares what Kevin Smith, a guy not involved in production AFAIK, got second hand? Get some of them to sign a statement under oath, or all you have is either Smith lying, or a bunch of crew who didn't like Whedon for whatever reason. Which I can understand; I don't like the guy and I've never met him. But it's not enough for me to accuse him of anything.

  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    That's not even slightly true.

    Companies don't like to be embarrassed, and they're never going to admit wrongdoing unless public pressure forces them to do so.
    Yes, but for public pressure to work, specifics need to be stated. Eventually, Ray will have to tell us what happened in detail in order to attain his goal(s).
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  9. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Mamoa wasn't specific about anything AFAIK, just that he wasn't happy about some dealings with WB. And vague support for someone who I assume is a friend. Gadot...who even knows what her beef was? However, given Whedon's history, I'd buy something off with his conduct to her much more than I'd buy any racism or whatever Fisher is alleging today on Whedon's part. The smoke here was probably a combination of Fisher's bitterness at having his big break taken from him, (in his mind), and his not knowing what to expect on a big production with a lot of hopes riding on it when everything goes south. Yeah, I'm sure it was hard, and unpleasant, but the guy was an adult and signed up willingly, and work isn't always fun. Mostly it's not, I've observed.

    The thing is, Fisher was always marginal as an actor; there are hundreds of more talented and charismatic actors who fit his exact niche; so he was lucky to even get cast. If he'd just shut up about his disappointment rather than wage a rather underhanded Twitter war against...whoever he felt aggrieved by that day; he still could have pulled of a minor career in TV or streaming as a supporting actor. But by doing all this, he gained nothing. Not salvaging that career, not looking good to the public, and not accomplishing any of his vaguely stated goals. If he'd sued...whoever...he'd have at least been able to present his case, assuming he has one. Nor do I think NDAs cover actual misconduct, at least not when examined by a judge. Regardless, if he'd even disclosed any evidence he had on Twitter or wherever, it would have at least compelled WB to conduct a open investigation, and depending on what he was alleging, (and I still have no idea what that is), even a criminal investigation.

    I can think of at least a dozen explanations for the Frosty thing, with most of them due to incompetence, miscommunication, and other unfortunate but not malicious or suspicious behavior. Who cares what Kevin Smith, a guy not involved in production AFAIK, got second hand? Get some of them to sign a statement under oath, or all you have is either Smith lying, or a bunch of crew who didn't like Whedon for whatever reason. Which I can understand; I don't like the guy and I've never met him. But it's not enough for me to accuse him of anything.
    I think we're agreed that Fisher's allegations of racism haven't shown much merit, but I don’t understand why you're giving WB a pass on the fake Frosty announcement but you're so skeptical of the idea that the crew members confided in Fisher.

    EDIT We should also be clear that Fisher hasn’t, to my knowledge, accused anyone of criminal behavior, so NDAs would be in effect. He's only accused people of being abusive, unprofessional, and enabling that behavior.

    And he thinks they're racists because... America
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 01-14-2021 at 08:21 AM.

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Yes, but for public pressure to work, specifics need to be stated. Eventually, Ray will have to tell us what happened in detail in order to attain his goal(s).
    Apparently, he doesn't because it looks like Fisher got almost everything he was asking for. He called for an independent investigation and when he didn't get that, he called them out and got a new investigation that found enough to require "remedial actions"

    His issues with Hamada were due to that first investigation, which Fisher claims was not fully independent.

    If Fisher is to be believed, this new investigation resulted in Whedon's departure and Johns not being given any new projects.

    From Fisher's perspective, he got everything he wanted except a career in Hollywood which he already knew he was torpedoing by going public.

    And he managed that without giving ant specifics.

    I have my doubts if Fisher's motives here were completely altruistic, but he can certainly claim to have accomplished what he set out to do.

    Whether or not anyone believes him is largely irrelevant.

  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Yes, but for public pressure to work, specifics need to be stated. Eventually, Ray will have to tell us what happened in detail in order to attain his goal(s).

    He’s being very careful, nothing gone to court to for him to speak in detail
    But that would also mean his witnesses would be exposed and they are small potatoes who could be silenced or bought out.
    He wants to use public pressure of the BLM to fight this.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    He’s being very careful, nothing gone to court to for him to speak in detail
    But that would also mean his witnesses would be exposed and they are small potatoes who could be silenced or bought out.
    He wants to use public pressure of the BLM to fight this.
    What good will that do?

    He still needs to present facts.

    He is just pandering to Snyder fans who hate Johns.

    why you're giving WB a pass on the fake Frosty announcement but you're so skeptical of the idea that the crew members confided in Fisher.
    You do know studios use FAKE NAMES for movies that they want to hide. That might have been the case or it could have Aquaman 2. Or a movie whose deal did not go through because of AT&T.

  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    What good will that do?

    He still needs to present facts.

    He is just pandering to Snyder fans who hate Johns.



    You do know studios use FAKE NAMES for movies that they want to hide. That might have been the case or it could have Aquaman 2. Or a movie whose deal did not go through because of AT&T.
    Then why was Momoa pissed about it? If it was honest mistake, he wouldn't have publicly called it out then announced his support for Fisher and the investigation.

    Why on Earth would Warner Bros issue a press release for Aquaman 2 but pretend it was an animated cartoon about Frosty the Snowman voiced by Jason Momoa?

    Also, Jon Berg isn't a producer on Aquaman 2
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    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 01-14-2021 at 09:04 AM.

  14. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    What good will that do?

    He still needs to present facts.

    He is just pandering to Snyder fans who hate Johns.



    You do know studios use FAKE NAMES for movies that they want to hide. That might have been the case or it could have Aquaman 2. Or a movie whose deal did not go through because of AT&T.
    It’s doing it right now he is gaining traction
    WB whole campaign for the snydercut is gonna be dragged by this
    And it will peak next month during black history month

    They are gonna have to respond to this

  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think we're agreed that Fisher's allegations of racism haven't shown much merit, but I don’t understand why you're giving WB a pass on the fake Frosty announcement but you're so skeptical of the idea that the crew members confided in Fisher.

    EDIT We should also be clear that Fisher hasn’t, to my knowledge, accused anyone of criminal behavior, so NDAs would be in effect. He's only accused people of being abusive, unprofessional, and enabling that behavior.

    And he thinks they're racists because... America
    Because in the absence of any evidence per the Frosty thing, as I said, I can think of a bunch of other, more likely explanations for that weird interlude than some sort of botched cover-up. I think there's a lot of crediting WB/DC of malevolent intent, while not recognizing one of the fundamental aspects of corporations like WB or ATT for that matter; they are composed of a lot of incompetent people who make rather silly mistakes all the time. While I can certainly see WB engaging in a lot of CYA....I just can't credit that one claim absent any evidence. Or for arguments sake, consider that thing could have been some sort of wish-list by some random exec that was issued as a feeler to all concerned. Yes, I know Frosty sounds too stupid to be true...but...Battleship, the movie, Rubik's Cube, the movie.....

    Never underestimate the stupid factor in Hollywood is what I'm saying. I'm still not sure NDAs would apply here. I believe there are a number of ways out of them. Trade secrets and business processes probably would be protected under an NDA, after all, that's really what they were intended for. Limited no compete clauses would probably also be enforceable, if they were limited in time to some reasonable time frame. Actual misconduct however...I don't know. I think there's more fear that they can than actual evidence. And fear of powerful lawyers with endless money behind them. That is however just my feeling, I could be wrong.

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