Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[Frontier]

Berganza’s also an issue for Johns, seeing as Berganza was the one who recruited him and gave him his initial gigs. Odds are Johns was a major force in Berganza being kept on after the first time stuff came out

I don't know if we could make that jump yet. Berganza was kept around before Johns was even big at DC, unless we also assume some of the people Berganza had dirt on was Johns.

I like/liked Johns stuff, but if even half the accusations (Fisher and Tucker, as well as Nelson and Ritesh Babu alluding to worse stuff comics side) are true; I’d be totally ok with blacklisting him and burning each and every character/concept he has a credit for out of DC; if only as an example/warning to others

If any of it is true and Johns acted improperly, then I would like him to apologize and for proper punishment to be meted out and he probably shouldn't work at DC anymore. The fact that he still is to some extent seems to indicate WB/DC didn't find anything worth firing him for, but that might change.

As far his characters/concepts, I don't think you can wholesale put a genie back in the bottle there with how many DC properties he's touched or expanded on.

Why would they. Johns is not their boss or co-worker anymore, an actor has been calling him a racist every day for a year, he was under investigation, now THR published what for the lack of a better phrase could be called a "hit piece" partially accentuated on him. Why would any comic creator put their ass on the line for someone they likely haven't had any contact with for years. I imagine they wouldn't want bad publicity for themselves too. "Social media" destroys lives and they know that. Go ask Jae Lee.

This makes it sound like Johns has literally no friends .

[Triniking1234]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ray8fishe...74602448056326

It would appear Johns defence of “continuity” has triggered Fisher’s trap card

What did Zod's ancestors look like?

[BatmanJones]

Possible, it just seems pretty tone-deaf to respond categorically "it's not" when someone black says constant hair-changes are a naturally black thing.

Also, regarding the article citing continuity and someone in this thread attempting to ratify that position by talking about “hair cuts” only shows ignorance about Black women’s hair. As a white theatre director I was also wrong about this in the past and regarded the Black woman that complained about it to be a diva. I was so incredibly wrong to think that way but that’s what happens when white people decide what’s okay for Black people to complain about...

Just as so many presumably white people are doing in this thread.

If you’re white and have decided what’s racially insensitive and what isn’t, check yourself, seriously, because neither you nor I have any business even opining about any of that.

Should a Jewish person decide what’s offensive to a Muslim one? Or deciding whether the Muslim person is being a crybaby or going overboard about it? Feel free to substitute any person of any culture or identity deciding what’s offensive and what isn’t to someone from a different culture, identity, race, etc. The answer is always no. Thank goodness some are finally coming to understand that.

Also, being married to a person of color does not give one any more authority than saying well, I can’t be racist because some of my best friends are Black.

And Johns is completely white-presenting. To imagine he’s ever experienced bigotry because he’s Lebanese really feels like a stretch. Think he’s ever been passed over by a taxi because he’s Lebanese? (The answer is no.)

Fisher was made to look desperate or whatever because he was being gaslighted throughout the process. That wouldn’t have happened with a white actor. Challenge yourself to see if you can understand the difference.

This plus the Krypton stuff has ruined Johns-written comics for me just as Van Sciver has ruined the comics he’s drawn. This isn’t only a race thing. I used to really, really love Louis C.K. And Woody Allen but I could not watch their stuff anymore without feeling sick over it.

To be clear, like Fisher, I don’t want anyone to be canceled, I only want them to admit what they did, even or especially if it was out of benign ignorance, and apologize for it. We are all learning and we should be open to learning and grateful for the opportunity. If Johns would just say he hadn’t realized what he’d said or done was offensive but he’s listening now, there wouldn’t be a problem to discuss.

Mostly though I’d like it if white comics fans weren’t deciding what’s racist and what isn’t. Because we, including myself, are in no way qualified to make such judgments.

[Vordan]

I don't know if we could make that jump yet. Berganza was kept around before Johns was even big at DC, unless we also assume some of the people Berganza had dirt on was Johns.

If any of it is true and Johns acted improperly, then I would like him to apologize and for proper punishment to be meted out and he probably shouldn't work at DC anymore. The fact that he still is to some extent seems to indicate WB/DC didn't find anything worth firing him for, but that might change.

As far his characters/concepts, I don't think you can wholesale put a genie back in the bottle there with how many DC properties he's touched or expanded on.

This makes it sound like Johns has literally no friends .

Those aren’t going anywhere, they’re making a Long Halloween movie despite Loeb having similar problems surrounding him from his time at Marvel. Johns stuff is too integral to DC to “get rid of”, even the Snyder fans who hate him see the DCU through the stories Johns wrote.

[Nite-Wing]

A lot of bad PR for Geoff Johns today

People should honestly stop being silent about this type of thing the story from Rege Jean Page is almost a non factor if not for how oddly Johns and his PR team is trying to push back against that and not anything Ray Fisher has been saying.
One seems way more damning than the other
Of course EVS would be defending Johns too that just completes his transition over to the problematic comic creators box

[king of hybrids]

In fairness, I would imagine EVS hasn’t forgotten that Johns left him swinging in the wind at his own fall from grace. Making sure that Johns has only him to turn to probably isn’t the worst idea that guy’s had

[BatmanJones]

Ray even says he “isn’t going anywhere”. He’ll be making comments forever, but the Snyder Cult isn’t going anywhere either. So WB’s won’t be able to “move on” from this any time soon on Twitter anyway.

That said everyone who hates Johns for this already hated him anyway for “screwing over” Snyder. I don’t expect the feud with Ray to negatively impact Geiger’s sales at all, I doubt the people who buy monthlies care.

"Everyone"? Before I wasn't troubled at all over Johns-Snyder except for Johns' possible role in making JL shitty (and I had no idea how much of a role he had in that so I didn't have an opinion). I'm not a Snyder fan so it would be impossible for me to hate Johns because of Snyder.

None of this stuff is based on prior like/dislike for me. The deepest disappointments to me have been the artists I did like or love, including Johns, Van Sciver, Louis CK, and Woody Allen as I mentioned in my post before.

As for ones I previously disliked, with some of them I wasn't surprised or even expected it. (Here I am talking more about politicians. I'm looking at you, Matt Gaetz.) With most though I just didn't care because I already didn't care about them.

My major issues are with the artists I loved that have really let me down. I really loved Border Town too for the few issues it had before we found out who the writer really was.

[BatmanJones]

Why would they. Johns is not their boss or co-worker anymore, an actor has been calling him a racist every day for a year, he was under investigation, now THR published what for the lack of a better phrase could be called a "hit piece" partially accentuated on him. Why would any comic creator put their ass on the line for someone they likely haven't had any contact with for years. I imagine they wouldn't want bad publicity for themselves too. "Social media" destroys lives and they know that. Go ask Jae Lee.

Though I do find it interesting how previously Fisher didn't say a thing about Johns in regards to race, he only talked about him "enabling" Whedon's behavior. Then once he brought up race, that's all he's been saying about him ever since. I mean let's look at some of the "bombshells" about Johns in that article: questioning a black actress' haircut in a scene for continuity purposes? Wanting Superman's grandfather to resemble the actor who recently portrayed Superman? "Advising" Ray to not get a bad reputation in Hollywood for contacting the head of the studio over creative differences? Wanting Cyborg to be less like Frankenstein's monster and more like Quasimodo in terms of demeanor? The previously mentioned "angry black man" thing they didn't want in the movie to supposedly avoid stereotypes? This is the "abhorrent discriminatory retaliatory" behavior that Fisher described about Johns? Then look at some of the verbiage used in the article, such as Johns allegedly making a "servile posture" to imitate Quasimodo in front of Ray. The author obviously knew exactly what they were doing, but I was perhaps expecting something a bit more juicy if this guy is supposed to be such an abhorrent racist as Ray previously described him to be.

I haven't seen anything in this thread (or in the article) on this issue:

https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[Vordan]

I haven't seen anything in this thread (or in the article) on this issue:

https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The irony here is that Johns apparently wanted to make sure Cyborg kept his genitals while he’s explicitly lacking sexual organs in the Snyderverse. It’s ironic because a lot of people were mad at Johns for making a “eunuch” the black rep on the JL, something he clearly took to heart, and yet he still managed to make people mad.

[Johnny]

Also, regarding the article citing continuity and someone in this thread attempting to ratify that position by talking about “hair cuts” only shows ignorance about Black women’s hair. As a white theatre director I was also wrong about this in the past and regarded the Black woman that complained about it to be a diva. I was so incredibly wrong to think that way but that’s what happens when white people decide what’s okay for Black people to complain about...

Just as so many presumably white people are doing in this thread.

If you’re white and have decided what’s racially insensitive and what isn’t, check yourself, seriously, because neither you nor I have any business even opining about any of that.

Should a Jewish person decide what’s offensive to a Muslim one? Or deciding whether the Muslim person is being a crybaby or going overboard about it? Feel free to substitute any person of any culture or identity deciding what’s offensive and what isn’t to someone from a different culture, identity, race, etc. The answer is always no. Thank goodness some are finally coming to understand that.

Also, being married to a person of color does not give one any more authority than saying well, I can’t be racist because some of my best friends are Black.

And Johns is completely white-presenting. To imagine he’s ever experienced bigotry because he’s Lebanese really feels like a stretch. Think he’s ever been passed over by a taxi because he’s Lebanese? (The answer is no.)

Fisher was made to look desperate or whatever because he was being gaslighted throughout the process. That wouldn’t have happened with a white actor. Challenge yourself to see if you can understand the difference.

This plus the Krypton stuff has ruined Johns-written comics for me just as Van Sciver has ruined the comics he’s drawn. This isn’t only a race thing. I used to really, really love Louis C.K. And Woody Allen but I could not watch their stuff anymore without feeling sick over it.

To be clear, like Fisher, I don’t want anyone to be canceled, I only want them to admit what they did, even or especially if it was out of benign ignorance, and apologize for it. We are all learning and we should be open to learning and grateful for the opportunity. If Johns would just say he hadn’t realized what he’d said or done was offensive but he’s listening now, there wouldn’t be a problem to discuss.

Mostly though I’d like it if white comics fans weren’t deciding what’s racist and what isn’t. Because we, including myself, are in no way qualified to make such judgments.

Was this supposed to allude to my previous comment. Please forgive my ignorance then for thinking I could express myself about how I thought certain portions of the article were presented, since I suppose I'm not qualified to do so based on what my perceived physical appearance may or may not be. Apologies to anyone my apparent microaggressions may have offended.

[BatmanJones]

The irony here is that Johns apparently wanted to make sure Cyborg kept his genitals while he’s explicitly lacking sexual organs in the Snyderverse. It’s ironic because a lot of people were mad at Johns for making a “eunuch” the black rep on the JL, something he clearly took to heart, and yet he still managed to make people mad.

The problem, as it was with Black hair (not haircuts, lol, can people stop saying that?), was telling a Black actor that he knew better about how Black people would respond to it.

As others have said here, he's not any sort of overt racist--all white people have (mostly) unknowingly said or did things that were racially insensitive. That's not an insult--I don't know what it's like to be Black so I wouldn't try to speak with any authority on that subject. If I had though, that would be racist, even if it was unknowing. The problem comes in the "I [I]do [I]know and you don't." Micro-aggressions come from a position of benign ignorance. What we now refer to as micro-aggressions are unavoidable, and nobody should have a complaint with any white person committing a micro-aggression unless/until that white person tells a Black person they're wrong to take it poorly.

That's my whole point. I don't even think it's possible that Johns knew that he was doing something wrong and, really, he wasn't doing anything wrong, until he was confronted and decided to overrule a Black man about Blackness. All he had to do was listen and show some humility about that, instead of telling the Black person that he knows better.

(And this thing about Johns just looking out for Fisher's career is incredibly condescending, especially in light of everything else.)

[BatmanJones]

Was this supposed to allude to my previous comment. Please forgive my ignorance then for thinking I could express myself about how I thought certain portions of the article were presented, since I suppose I'm not qualified to do so based on what my perceived physical appearance may or may not be. Apologies to anyone my apparent microaggressions may have offended.

I can appreciate the snark. This is all touchy stuff. Several people said "haircuts" in the context of continuity from one scene to the next, failing to understand that Black women don't cut their hair every day; they wear wigs, they style it differently, etc. I would have made the same, wrong assumption (and did) before it was pointed out to me. And it still took me a while to recover from feeling like I was being called a racist, even though nobody actually called me that, just as I have not called anyone that here.

So it wasn't personal.

My main point, and perhaps it ought to have been my only point, was that white people do not know what is offensive to Black people. I understand people not liking the word micro-aggression and probably there's a better word.

The problem comes when such a thing is pointed out to a white person and the white person (a) refuses to accept the possibility they may have been wrong and/or (b) worse, when they insist that they know what's offensive to people from a different race better than the people that are of that race.

I just see a lot of (as I said, presumedly) white people passing judgment over whether or not Fisher has a right to be upset. I am white so I believe Fisher, who is Black, knows a hell of a lot more than I do about what's racially offensive or insensitive and he always, always will.

[Vordan]

The problem, as it was with Black hair (not haircuts, lol, can people stop saying that?), was telling a Black actor that he knew better about how Black people would respond to it.

As others have said here, he's not any sort of overt racist--all white people have (mostly) unknowingly said or did things that were racially insensitive. That's not an insult--I don't know what it's like to be Black so I wouldn't try to speak with any authority on that subject. If I had though, that would be racist, even if it was unknowing. The problem comes in the "I [I]do [I]know and you don't." Micro-aggressions come from a position of benign ignorance. What we now refer to as micro-aggressions are unavoidable, and nobody should have a complaint with any white person committing a micro-aggression unless/until that white person tells a Black person they're wrong to take it poorly.

That's my whole point. I don't even think it's possible that Johns knew that he was doing something wrong and, really, he wasn't doing anything wrong, until he was confronted and decided to overrule a Black man about Blackness. All he had to do was listen and show some humility about that, instead of telling the Black person that he knows better.

(And this thing about Johns just looking out for Fisher's career is incredibly condescending, especially in light of everything else.)

Thing is a lot of black DC fans took issue with Cyborg’s status, so I can see where Johns was coming from. Does Ray being fine with it overrule the years of complaints Johns took from other black fans? Hell when the news concerning arguments over DCEU Cyborg’s genitals initially came out, I saw a lot of people thought the situation was reversed. They believed Ray wanted Vic to keep his genitals and Johns was arguing for him not to have them, and were accusing Johns of being threatened by black male sexuality.

With all that in mind, what’s the right thing to do? Ray wanted to preserve Snyder’s take on Cyborg, troubling as it could be. Does Ray’s desires overrule other black fans complaints? I wouldn’t really know what to do either. Should’ve done a better job explaining to Ray where he was coming from rather than just brushing him off.

[Thezmage]

Thing is a lot of black DC fans took issue with Cyborg’s status, so I can see where Johns was coming from. Does Ray being fine with it overrule the years of complaints Johns took from other black fans? Hell when the news concerning arguments over DCEU Cyborg’s genitals initially came out, I saw a lot of people thought the situation was reversed. They believed Ray wanted Vic to keep his genitals and Johns was arguing for him not to have them, and were accusing Johns of being threatened by black male sexuality.

With all that in mind, what’s the right thing to do? Ray wanted to preserve Snyder’s take on Cyborg, troubling as it could be. Does Ray’s desires overrule other black fans complaints? I wouldn’t really know what to do either.

And that might be why the complaint doesn't show up anywhere in this most recent article

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah, Whedon comes out looking bad yet again. I'm sure he'd continue to look bad if Gadot and Momoa ever decided to spill more from their side. Fisher was definitely haphazard with who he went after and how he characterized their role in the process as well. Though I don't think we can just shrug away the racial animus part; sometimes a decision can have unfortunate racial implications even if nobody involved is consciously bigoted. I think the fact that Ray was allowed so much input in the beginning and was then made to do a 180 on the character really soured his experience. I'm sure some would argue that he wasn't entitled to that kind of collaborative process, but I think anyone would feel hard done by.

Agreed, there wasn't any conscious racism at play here from the sounds of it. Whedon, Johns, & Berg were too preoccupied with trying to satisfy the ridiculous mandates of Tsujihara to even consider race beyond their notion that having an angry black man at the center of their $300 million gamble was too big a risk.

Frankly, Fisher didn’t appreciate the situation that Johns and Berg were saddled with, who were similarly insensitive to how the rug had been pulled out from under Fisher.