Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[Thezmage]

Yeah, we can keep laughing at the "he had a black wife before and has an Asian wife and a mixed-race son now" thing and it is funny as hell, but the part that's clearly meant to mock him for requesting them to mention his cultural identity was kind of a low blow. Then look at some of the verbiage used in the article again, such as Johns supposedly doing a "servile posture" to imitate Quasimodo in front of Ray, to which Ray responded that he didn't want to play a "jovial cathedral-cleaning individual". A lot of "servitude" references there. The author didn't even try to hide how obviously they wanted to paint Johns in as bad of a light as they could. Judging by some of his rep's contents, he kind of deserved it, but the piece really wasn't trying to hide the narrative it was aiming to paint about him.

I certainly agree that if Johns' rep said all of that more or less exactly as it's being portrayed in the article then it is mock-worthy but after that comment I'm not really willing to give the article writer the benefit of the doubt on that either.

[lefthanded]

I certainly agree that if Johns' rep said all of that more or less exactly as it's being portrayed in the article then it is mock-worthy but after that comment I'm not really willing to give the article writer the benefit of the doubt on that either.

The article is definitely a hit-piece, but even so, it doesn't hit as hard as Fisher/the author seem to think it does. Johns doesn't come out looking good at all, but have all the social media campaigning by Fisher alluding to bombshells, its at most just firecrackers.

Fisher clearly has a problem with a Quasimodo metaphor, and even Johns (through his rep) seems to have responded to that. Yet he has no problem with Frankenstein (also a monster, with meanings associated with it as well)?

It is unclear whether there was this master-servant thing going on, whether this is a Hollywood standard 'actor not liking notes from producers', or whether Fisher didn't like Johns and so is predisposed to view everything in a negative light.

[BatmanJones]

Unless casting decisions like this are somehow related to some form of whitewashing, then isn't it a bit odd that producers need to publicly justify not casting actors who they didn't think were right for particular roles, or else they must be racially-motivated. If anything couldn't that end up having the opposite effect of sorts to where it might actually discourage some producers from putting diverse casting on the table more often and instead turn it into a minefield that's better to be avoided, since if a POC doesn't get that role it would always be spun into a racism-based clickbait headline.

But they did think he was right for the role and Johns came in and said no. No offense but that renders the rest of your post meaningless.

[BatmanJones]

So Kal-El wouldn't have been related to his black grandfather by blood? I'm pretty sure that would have been spun negatively by Fisher and others, too.

Just an idea based on a prior post. My thoughts otherwise are in the post above it.

I haven’t been posting in response to what Fisher thought or did or might do next, just to be clear. I’ve been posting on the topics surrounding all this which is a broader conversation.

I’m also not in favor of firing or canceling Johns. As I said a while back I’d just like him to acknowledge the situation and apologize for unintended slights. Maybe Fisher is insinuating racism or maybe he’s referencing microaggressions. But microaggressions are unavoidable and I think the proper response to them is, “I had no idea that could be hurtful, it wasn’t my intent, but I realize I’m still learning and will be listening and learning more as a result of these incidences.”

Or whatever Bored suggested earlier. Fisher was as hard on Berg as Johns until Berg made the simple effort of reaching out.

[Frontier]

But they did think he was right for the role and Johns came in and said no. No offense but that renders the rest of your post meaningless.

I was under the impression that he was considered for the role as part of an open casting, not that he was finalized, before Johns came in and felt they should go in a more traditional direction.

To be honest I would be surprised if this is the first time that's happened during a casting process.

[Johnny]

But they did think he was right for the role and Johns came in and said no. No offense but that renders the rest of your post meaningless.

Non-taken but it doesn't because we don't know for sure whether they thought he was right for the role or not. The article mentions that Rege simply auditioned for the role, not that they wanted to give him the part and Johns came in and shot it down. A lot of other sites that reposted the news afterwards act like Rege was either cast or they wanted to cast him and Johns shot it down, when THR says he had just auditioned for it. We don't know for sure whether Johns said or did anything particularly in regards to Rege's audition, that's just a guess based on the info we have to discuss. I'm not sure why there was an open casting if the character was planned to resemble a young Cavill since the show was originally being developed as a type of quasi-prequel series to Man of Steel. I wonder if it was done mostly for optics so they won't get backlash if they only auditioned white actors for it.

[BatmanJones]

Yeah, we can keep laughing at the "he had a black wife before and has an Asian wife and a mixed-race son now" thing and it is funny as hell, but the part that's clearly meant to mock him for requesting them to mention his cultural identity was kind of a low blow.

His press agent explicitly asked that he be identified as such when he’d never asked that in any other context but for this one regarding race. We all know why he did that, that’s not even debatable. To report on that request isn’t just not a low blow; the writer would have been negligent not to include it, especially in re: a situation involving questions of race. It’s no different than the wives and kid thing which is no different than “but I have Black friends.”

It was a tone deaf thing to do and it’s being reported as such.

[BatmanJones]

Non-taken but it doesn't because we don't know for sure whether they thought he was right for the role or not. The article mentions that Rege simply auditioned for the role, not that they wanted to give him the part and Johns came in and shot it down. A lot of other sites that reposted the news afterwards act like Rege was either cast or they wanted to cast him and Johns shot it down, when THR says he had just auditioned for it. We don't know for sure whether Johns said or did anything in particular regards to Rege's audition, that's just a guess based on the info we have to discuss. I'm not sure why there was an open casting if the character was planned to resemble a young Cavill since the show was originally being developed as a type of quasi-prequel series to Man of Steel. I wonder if it was done mostly for optics so they won't get backlash if they only auditioned white actors for it.

If he wasn’t the frontrunner for the role before Johns made his opinion known I just had that wrong and retract what I’d said about it.

If it was about optics though, and they were allowing BIPOC actors to audition for a role they couldn’t be considered for, that’s just as bad but in a different way. If it was about optics it backfired badly and I think reading BIPOC actors for roles they never had a shot at are some pretty damning optics.

[Thezmage]

I think that any "this is what I think REALLY happened" speculation is at the very least a slippery slope, but I doubt it was a fake open casting call even if "resemblance to Henry Cavill" was one of the criteria they were using to judge.

[Thezmage]

His press agent explicitly asked that he be identified as such when he’d never asked that in any other context but for this one regarding race. We all know why he did that, that’s not even debatable. To report on that request isn’t just not a low blow; the writer would have been negligent not to include it, especially in re: a situation involving questions of race. It’s no different than the wives and kid thing which is no different than “but I have Black friends.”

It was a tone deaf thing to do and it’s being reported as such.

Yes, we all know why he did that: he expected Fisher to portray him as a clueless white guy and in the absence of details everybody will assume he is such. Fisher wouldn't be happy if this article came out without identifying him as black anywhere either, should the article have said "Ray Fisher, who wants it to be made clear that he is black?"

[BatmanJones]

Yes, we all know why he did that: he expected Fisher to portray him as a clueless white guy and in the absence of details everybody will assume he is such. Fisher wouldn't be happy if this article came out without identifying him as black anywhere either, should the article have said "Ray Fisher, who wants it to be made clear that he is black?"

Fisher did not make such a request, probably since his Blackness is evident. The fact that Johns’ ethnicity is not evident is sort of the whole point.

It was utterly clueless for him to make that request. No other details needed.

[dornwolf]

If he wasn’t the frontrunner for the role before Johns made his opinion known I just had that wrong and retract what I’d said about it.

If it was about optics though, and they were allowing BIPOC actors to audition for a role they couldn’t be considered for, that’s just as bad but in a different way. If it was about optics it backfired badly and I think reading BIPOC actors for roles they never had a shot at are some pretty damning optics.

That'd be a whole different and even bigger problem if he had been promised the role and then had it yanked. Indefensible at that point.

[BatmanJones]

That'd be a whole different and even bigger problem if he had been promised the role and then had it yanked. Indefensible at that point.

I certainly agree with that but I also think that if the casting director wanted to cast him, but never told him that and Johns put the kibosh on the otherwise preferred actor, that would be very troubling as well.

[Thezmage]

Fisher did not make such a request, probably since his Blackness is evident. The fact that Johns’ ethnicity is not evident is sort of the whole point.

It was utterly clueless for him to make that request. No other details needed.

It would certainly be possible to write that entire article without ever once mentioning the color of Ray's skin. It'd be morally indefensible but it's possible. Not wanting his identity deliberately obscured is a basic human right that he is asserting and getting attacked for. But because he doesn't "look middle eastern enough" he apparently doesn't have the right to not have that misrepresented, I guess.

[BatmanJones]

It would certainly be possible to write that entire article without ever once mentioning the color of Ray's skin. It'd be morally indefensible but it's possible. Not wanting his identity deliberately obscured is a basic human right that he is asserting and getting attacked for. But because he doesn't "look middle eastern enough" he apparently doesn't have the right to not have that misrepresented, I guess.

We are going in circles. He only ever made that request in a situation having to do with race. It is no different than bringing up the race of his wives for the exact same reason.

In situations that have nothing to do with race it has not been important to him. This is nothing but “some of my best friends are Black.”