Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

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Seeing how we don't have all the puzzle pieces, is there really any point to speculating on the motives of anyone at this juncture? An investigation was made, they seem to think that something needs to be resolved, and Fisher seems content with the results so far. Not nearly enough to go pointing fingers or anything.

Exactly. I can understand people who are skeptical of Fisher and his motives, but there is simply not enough information for anyone to have the degree of certainty that I keep seeing on this thread.

Everything discussed here is wild speculation based upon industry gossip, blatantly false statement made by both sides, and the statements released to the public. That's part of the fun of trying to parse this out, of course, but the degree to which people have planted their flag so firmly on either side of this is utterly ridiculous.

We're a bunch of blind men grasping in the dark, and none of us has any clue what the reality of the situation was.

Doesn't mean we can't enjoying guessing, but everyone should keep in mind these are guesses rather than anything that can credibly considered objective facts.

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These things Fisher hasn't been shy about, like I said you don't have to be psychic to get that intent. I'm just as confused about why your supporting him so stubbornly, despite his constant f*ck-ups and lack of credibility. What's confusing is how he goes about this, not what his motives are.

Check this thread again if you think I've been stubbornly supporting Fisher. I've gone back and forth on him constantly. Currently, he seems more credible than the other side has been. However, if more information comes to light, I could easily change my mind.

[achilles]

No one, to my knowledge, has accused Whedon of any serious crimes. He's been accused of being "unprofessional, abusive, and disgusting". Essentially, he's being called out for treating people very badly and getting away with it because he wielded power in Hollywood. In addition to Fisher, Mamoa, and Gadot, Charisma Carpenter, James Marsters, and some former Buffy producers have told stories of their problems with Whedon. Some were more specific than others. There's also the circumstances of his divorce, which also don't paint Whedon in the kindest of lights.

On the other hand, you've got guys like Alan Tudyk, who have gone to bat for Whedon and said that he's a mensch. Who knows what the truth is, since I would guess none of us have ever met or worked with Whedon. I'm sure, like with too many people working in Hollywood, Whedon's been a great guy to some and been pretty crummy to others.

What matters here is whether or not this kind of behavior is allowed to continue by the studios because talented guys like Whedon make them a lot of money. The days of producers, directors, and stars being able to get away with acting like @$#holes because they're valuable to the corporations that employ them is slowly coming to an end.

From what we've heard thus far, nothing Whedon did even comes close to the actual crimes that guys like Weinstein, Spacey, and too many others have been accused of, but that doesn't mean that people should be allowed to get away with acting terribly as long as they don't break any laws.

No, absolutely right; there is a culture problem in Hollywood, and that sort of thing should go the way of the dinosaurs. Hollywood history is filled with horror stories of outright abusive directors, and it doesn't need to be. I can't think of a single movie with an abusive director that couldn't have gotten a similar result if the director had acted decently. Did Shelly Duvall really need Kubrick to mentally torture her in order to get a good performance? I doubt that. She was a professional actress; she didn't need that. Ditto for any of the leading ladies Hitchcock abused. And for that matter, Tom Cruise could have dialed it down and talked quietly to his crew rather than publicly berate them.

Hopefully, at least the Fisher debacle will at least get directors thinking about their management style, regardless of the truth of Fisher's allegations. And here I've got to say that the biggest thing Fisher has going for him is Whedon's own well known history; but that doesn't seem to include any racism. I'd have expected Whedon to have mistreated Gadot, given his history, but she hasn't claimed anything like that.

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No, absolutely right; there is a culture problem in Hollywood, and that sort of thing should go the way of the dinosaurs. Hollywood history is filled with horror stories of outright abusive directors, and it doesn't need to be. I can't think of a single movie with an abusive director that couldn't have gotten a similar result if the director had acted decently. Did Shelly Duvall really need Kubrick to mentally torture her in order to get a good performance? I doubt that. She was a professional actress; she didn't need that. Ditto for any of the leading ladies Hitchcock abused. And for that matter, Tom Cruise could have dialed it down and talked quietly to his crew rather than publicly berate them.

Hopefully, at least the Fisher debacle will at least get directors thinking about their management style, regardless of the truth of Fisher's allegations. And here I've got to say that the biggest thing Fisher has going for him is Whedon's own well known history; but that doesn't seem to include any racism. I'd have expected Whedon to have mistreated Gadot, given his history, but she hasn't claimed anything like that.

I think Fisher may have overreached when he claimed racism, and the retraction that article had to make about them using color correction on their skin tone hurt his credibility, which could be why we haven't heard Fisher talk about that recently.

[skyvolt2000]

Hopefully, at least the Fisher debacle will at least get directors thinking about their management style, regardless of the truth of Fisher's allegations. And here I've got to say that the biggest thing Fisher has going for him is Whedon's own well known history; but that doesn't seem to include any racism. I'd have expected Whedon to have mistreated Gadot, given his history, but she hasn't claimed anything like that.

Until you hurt a box office or ratings-nothing really changes.

Sure some will get punished and vanish for awhile but others just go on to the next project.

Why?

Because there are factions of folks who don't care.

Because there are factions of folks who would rather see an abusive white director keep getting work versus a POC or woman getting those shots.

Because there are factions of folks out there who REFUSE to give new blood a shot.

Hurt a few pocket books-you will get some folks paying attention.

And yes Tom Cruise could have done that better.

[The Darknight Detective]

Until you hurt a box office or ratings-nothing really changes.

Sure some will get punished and vanish for awhile but others just go on to the next project.

Why?

Because there are factions of folks who don't care.

Because there are factions of folks who would rather see an abusive white director keep getting work versus a POC or woman getting those shots.

Because there are factions of folks out there who REFUSE to give new blood a shot.

Hurt a few pocket books-you will get some folks paying attention.

And yes Tom Cruise could have done that better.

I agree with you for the most part, sky, but if the charges are serious enough, anybody can be taken down. Ray's charges, OTOH, are not of that nature. If Whedon had had a billion-dollar success for WB, nothing Fisher has said would have had any effect.

[achilles]

Until you hurt a box office or ratings-nothing really changes.

Sure some will get punished and vanish for awhile but others just go on to the next project.

Why?

Because there are factions of folks who don't care.

Because there are factions of folks who would rather see an abusive white director keep getting work versus a POC or woman getting those shots.

Because there are factions of folks out there who REFUSE to give new blood a shot.

Hurt a few pocket books-you will get some folks paying attention.

And yes Tom Cruise could have done that better.

Nobody should have to endure actual abuse from a boss. It's not a color issue. Most of the most famous victims of actual directorial abuse were white, abused by white directors. But it doesn't matter who is doing the abuse, and who is getting abused, again, no one should have to work like that.

That said, again I don't know if Whedon can be added to that infamous list in this case, as we still have no real idea what Fisher says happened.

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Nobody should have to endure actual abuse from a boss. It's not a color issue. Most of the most famous victims of actual directorial abuse were white, abused by white directors. But it doesn't matter who is doing the abuse, and who is getting abused, again, no one should have to work like that.

While I think race has certainly been a serious issue in Hollywood for decades, I haven't seen anything yet from what little we know that shows the problems that plagued the Justice League production were racial. Fisher tried to make that claim in regards to the skin tones being altered, but that was shot down pretty decisively to the point where a retraction had to be made.

Abusive directors in Hollywood is not something people should simply accept as the cost of doing business. Great art has certainly been created through abusive behavior, but that doesn't mean that's how it needs to done. Look at the performance Stanley Kubrick got out of Shelley Duvall in the Shining vs. the exact same performance Mike Flanagan got out of Alexandra Essoe in the recreation of the same scene in Doctor Sleep. By all reports, Kubrick treated Duvall horribly in order to get that performance whereas Flanagan was able to get the same results while treating his actress with the utmost respect and care.

[Rac7d*]

Cyborg ray gisher is giving me a headache
Can he go work for marvel, I’m so sick of him

https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/statu...290950657?s=21

[Holt]

Probably mad about the latest Hamada article saying there are no plans for more Snyder Justice League films.

[Drako]

Cyborg ray gisher is giving me a headache
Can he go work for marvel, I’m so sick of him

https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/statu...290950657?s=21

"I will not participate in any production associated with him."

Probably the easiest promise he ever made cause i don't think WB'll be calling his number anytime soon.

[Goldrake]

Cyborg ray gisher is giving me a headache
Can he go work for marvel, I’m so sick of him

https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/statu...290950657?s=21

The DCEU is dead as fisher doesn't want to be in it, LOL
Who does he think he is? this man is crazy, mr nobody who played the part of character that is not that popular either. It should have been Green Lantern in JL, not cyborg.

[Johnny]

Guess that means he's not totally satisfied with the investigation after all. Though let's be honest, he was done right after he called Toby Emmerich a racist.

[Goldrake]

Guess that means he's not totally satisfied with the investigation after all. Though let's be honest, he was done right after he called Toby Emmerich a racist.

he is a nobody actor, who because played cyborg believed he had some divine right to do a solo of a character who isn't that popular.

[Johnny]

he is a nobody actor, who because played cyborg believed he had some divine right to do a solo of a character who isn't that popular.

Well I frankly thought Cyborg was the best character in the theatrical cut of Justice League, so I was genuinely looking forward to seeing his extended role in the Snyder Cut or him in the role again in general. Though I've never seen Doom Patrol so that's probably why when I think of live-action Cyborg I still only think of Fisher.