Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[king of hybrids]

On a lightly more practical point, is Fisher not opening himself up to potential legal problems if he starts putting out call recordings on Twitter?

[Alpha]

Fisher is like Trump with the election results, throwing lot of acusations with zero evidence. I'm sure that soon he'll encourage Snyder fans to assault Warner offices.

Not the same thing whatsoever. Fisher is talking about his personal experience. Trump is talking about things he has no way of knowing and every evidence points to the contrary.

But I have no horse in this race and I honestly can't believe this thread has 60 pages. How is there so much to discuss? We don't know anything so we can't judge anything. And I don't get why people are this invested in this whole thing. Either demand that Warner Brothers annuls the NDA, or ignore Ray Fisher if you think he is over reacting. This seems like a waste of time in a very uninteresting topic. But I guess I shouldn't judge either

[skyvolt2000]

Not the same thing whatsoever. Fisher is talking about his personal experience. Trump is talking about things he has no way of knowing and every evidence points to the contrary.

But I have no horse in this race and I honestly can't believe this thread has 60 pages. How is there so much to discuss? We don't know anything so we can't judge anything. And I don't get why people are this invested in this whole thing. Either demand that Warner Brothers annuls the NDA, or ignore Ray Fisher if you think he is over reacting. This seems like a waste of time in a very uninteresting topic. But I guess I shouldn't judge either

Seeing that we are in an era of TOXIC behavior lead by FALSE or UNPROVEN information-there is stuff to discuss.

We don't know what the actual experience Fisher had is. He has not provided any real evidence. He is being edged on by Snyder fans-who have a bone to pick with Johns and Hamada.

Fans who went in all HOSTILE on anyone who did not care for Snyder or the movie. Under the claim that there was a complete Snyder version of the film that just needed special effects and some editing. Yet 100 million and reshooting scenes is needed to finish.

The investment? When does the TOXIC behavior really come out on this? When does Khary Payton and Joivan Wade get attacked by them for portraying "FAKE" Cyborgs as Fisher is the one only worthy version? When do they start attacking other DC productions like Star Girl? Or even DC Comics themselves?

When does it get toxic enough to RETIRE Cyborg?

[Goldrake]

Seeing that we are in an era of TOXIC behavior lead by FALSE or UNPROVEN information-there is stuff to discuss.

We don't know what the actual experience Fisher had is. He has not provided any real evidence. He is being edged on by Snyder fans-who have a bone to pick with Johns and Hamada.

Fans who went in all HOSTILE on anyone who did not care for Snyder or the movie. Under the claim that there was a complete Snyder version of the film that just needed special effects and some editing. Yet 100 million and reshooting scenes is needed to finish.

The investment? When does the TOXIC behavior really come out on this? When does Khary Payton and Joivan Wade get attacked by them for portraying "FAKE" Cyborgs as Fisher is the one only worthy version? When do they start attacking other DC productions like Star Girl? Or even DC Comics themselves?

When does it get toxic enough to RETIRE Cyborg?

Agreed 100%

[Alpha]

Seeing that we are in an era of TOXIC behavior lead by FALSE or UNPROVEN information-there is stuff to discuss.

We don't know what the actual experience Fisher had is. He has not provided any real evidence. He is being edged on by Snyder fans-who have a bone to pick with Johns and Hamada.

Fans who went in all HOSTILE on anyone who did not care for Snyder or the movie. Under the claim that there was a complete Snyder version of the film that just needed special effects and some editing. Yet 100 million and reshooting scenes is needed to finish.

The investment? When does the TOXIC behavior really come out on this? When does Khary Payton and Joivan Wade get attacked by them for portraying "FAKE" Cyborgs as Fisher is the one only worthy version? When do they start attacking other DC productions like Star Girl? Or even DC Comics themselves?

When does it get toxic enough to RETIRE Cyborg?

Fine ok whatever. Keep discussing this.

[achilles]

Seeing that we are in an era of TOXIC behavior lead by FALSE or UNPROVEN information-there is stuff to discuss.

We don't know what the actual experience Fisher had is. He has not provided any real evidence. He is being edged on by Snyder fans-who have a bone to pick with Johns and Hamada.

Fans who went in all HOSTILE on anyone who did not care for Snyder or the movie. Under the claim that there was a complete Snyder version of the film that just needed special effects and some editing. Yet 100 million and reshooting scenes is needed to finish.

The investment? When does the TOXIC behavior really come out on this? When does Khary Payton and Joivan Wade get attacked by them for portraying "FAKE" Cyborgs as Fisher is the one only worthy version? When do they start attacking other DC productions like Star Girl? Or even DC Comics themselves?

When does it get toxic enough to RETIRE Cyborg?

A bit off topic, but my favorite Cyborg was Khary Payton. IMO, he gave the role a lot. Also, he was the first Cyborg I got to see....that usually has some influence on me.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Let's be clear; Whedon and company would have to go a very very long way to match some of the most beloved directors of all time. Vicious mental and physical abuse to worm performances out of actors or more commonly actresses, (Hitchcock, Kubrick, others), blatant disregard for physical safety, (James Cameron, Joe Dante, many others). Since Fisher or Mamoa or any of them won't come out and say what they're complaining about, I can only assume they're complaining about nothing, or are exaggerating, or simply have no idea about the realities of Hollywood major movie productions. It's not like we don't know exactly what went on with respect to the abuse of Shelley Duval in The Shining, or Tippi Hedren in The Birds. We know about the horrible conditions on The Abyss and Titanic....and I have to say, a tense set, which I'm sure League was when they had to change direction, isn't in the running.

Bottom line is that Fisher gets sympathy when and if he says exactly what we're suppose to sympathize with, and can provide something more than his own word.

And I think we've finally reached something close to agreement here. We have no idea if the shitshow that was the Justice League production reached the depths of the more infamous Hollywood shitshow productions and we likely never will thanks to the current practice of using NDAs to keep any of this stuff from ever seeing the light (outside of illegal behavior, of course). I also don't think Fisher is expecting sympathy from you, nor has he asked for any. He wanted an independent investigation and he got one. He wanted Whedon to face consequences for his abusive and unprofessional behavior and it appears that Whedon's days as a major player in Hollywood are over. It remains to be seen if Geoff Johns will be given new projects beyond his current ones (which are extensive).

I'm sure Fisher honestly believes that he was the subject of racism, but that doesn't necessarily mean those beliefs are based in facts. It doesn't mean he wasn't, but until he produces something more tangible, I don't think these claims are going to gain much traction.

For me, the most telling thing is that Fisher started all this by explicitly stating that he was dancing around his NDAs, but, if anything he was able to say was in any way untrue, Whedon, Berg, or Johns were welcome to sue him for slander. The fact that neither Whedon, Berg, nor Johns have taken any legal measures against Fisher says a lot.

If someone repeatedly lying about me being an abusive, unprofessional racist in a public forum in an clear attempt to smear my reputation and rob me of employment opportunities, you can damned sure that I would sue that person into the stone age...unless I was afraid of what those legal proceedings would reveal.

I think that Johnny Depp/Amber Heard fiasco taught Hollywood a valuable lesson about how these things can backfire badly. At first, most people thought Depp was the villain, and then Heard, but now we realize they're both horrible people.

[The Darknight Detective]

For me, the most telling thing is that Fisher started all this by explicitly stating that he was dancing around his NDAs, but, if anything he was able to say was in any way untrue, Whedon, Berg, or Johns were welcome to sue him for slander. The fact that neither Whedon, Berg, nor Johns have taken any legal measures against Fisher says a lot.

If someone repeatedly lying about me being an abusive, unprofessional racist in a public forum in an clear attempt to smear my reputation and rob me of employment opportunities, you can damned sure that I would sue that person into the stone age...unless I was afraid of what those legal proceedings would reveal.

It wouldn't be easy for anyone to sue for slander in this regard, though. That's why it's not commonly done, especially for celebrities. All three of them might be completely innocent of any racism, but the discovery process could still muddy them up.

[achilles]

Whedon's days as a major player in Hollywood over?!? On the accusations of an actor on his first movie credit, a guy who won't even say exactly what he's accusing Whedon of, or provide any proof to substantiate anything? Not in a million years. Whedon has actually produced for Hollywood, Fisher hasn't.

As for why they haven't sued Fisher...I can think of reasons. First off, to not give credit to what after all is still very much a niche issue, largely unknown by the general public. Second, the optics. The third of course is that they as you say are guilty of something.

I wonder why Fisher is hiding behind the NDA. I mean he won't spontaneously combust if he just out and says what he's on about. And if he has any truly spectacular allegations, what are the chances WB would sue him? Slim and none, again because of the optics. More likely, they'd announce an investigation, and end up giving him what he says he wants, whatever that is. Instead, he got his investigation, but not his desired results because they didn't have to give him that. Besides, he's willing to end his own career with that behavior, but not willing to get sued? Okay.

Again, I don't find him credible at the present, a finding which could change if he would just get over himself and start talking more than trash. He has plenty of easily understood motives to go after Whedon and the others. And frankly, what he's said about Whedon, (not my favorite person BTW for reasons dating back a bit), is not consistent with Whedon's documented history. If anything, with Whedon I'd be more inclined to believe Gadot if she claimed he harassed her. He has a history with actresses after all. But he has no history I'm aware of for racism.

[achilles]

It wouldn't be easy for anyone to sue for slander in this regard, though. That's why it's not commonly done, especially for celebrities. All three of them might be completely innocent of any racism, but the discovery process could still muddy them up.

Maybe that's his game, try to provoke them into suing him, and use discovery to stain their reputations for something else, as revenge or leverage?

[The Darknight Detective]

Maybe that's his game, try to provoke them into suing him, and use discovery to stain their reputations for something else, as revenge or leverage?

It\s hard to know what either side is thinking at this point, IMO.

[The Darknight Detective]

Whedon's days as a major player in Hollywood over?!?

I believe that's premature myself. Unless something substantive comes out, he'll be doing something in the near future. In fact, Whedon would still be working had Justice League been a success based on what we know at present.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It wouldn't be easy for anyone to sue for slander in this regard, though. That's why it's not commonly done, especially for celebrities. All three of them might be completely innocent of any racism, but the discovery process could still muddy them up.

BINGO!

If Whedon, Berg, and Johns had indeed conducted themselves in a way that should be expected from directors and producers today, then they should have nothing to fear...but they didn't, so they don't want anybody looking too closely at what occurred. With the current set-up, they can let Fisher tweet himself into a corner, because he can't say anything specific without breaking that NDA, which means that few people will ever believe him.

That said, if Whedon, Berg, or Johns does take legal action against Fisher, which they absolutely should if he's actually been lying about them, then I'll be the first to warm up the popcorn

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Whedon's days as a major player in Hollywood over?!? On the accusations of an actor on his first movie credit, a guy who won't even say exactly what he's accusing Whedon of, or provide any proof to substantiate anything? Not in a million years. Whedon has actually produced for Hollywood, Fisher hasn't.

As for why they haven't sued Fisher...I can think of reasons. First off, to not give credit to what after all is still very much a niche issue, largely unknown by the general public. Second, the optics. The third of course is that they as you say are guilty of something.

I wonder why Fisher is hiding behind the NDA. I mean he won't spontaneously combust if he just out and says what he's on about. And if he has any truly spectacular allegations, what are the chances WB would sue him? Slim and none, again because of the optics. More likely, they'd announce an investigation, and end up giving him what he says he wants, whatever that is. Instead, he got his investigation, but not his desired results because they didn't have to give him that. Besides, he's willing to end his own career with that behavior, but not willing to get sued? Okay.

Again, I don't find him credible at the present, a finding which could change if he would just get over himself and start talking more than trash. He has plenty of easily understood motives to go after Whedon and the others. And frankly, what he's said about Whedon, (not my favorite person BTW for reasons dating back a bit), is not consistent with Whedon's documented history. If anything, with Whedon I'd be more inclined to believe Gadot if she claimed he harassed her. He has a history with actresses after all. But he has no history I'm aware of for racism.

Like with Johns, only time will tell if Fisher's accusations have actually stuck with Whedon. Currently, he's stepped down from his HBO show and has nothing on his plate. Once the plague of Covid-19 lifts, we'll see if Whedon suddenly starts getting work in Hollywood again. With Johns, it's going to take much longer because he already had a bunch of projects in the works that Warner Bros. wouldn't be inclined to remove him from because of the financial and legal complications it would unleash.

I think everyone is perfectly satisfied to let Fisher twist in the wind, waiting to see if he ever gets frustrated enough to break his NDA, at which point they can sue him into oblivion, optics be damned, because nobody in Hollywood wants the power of the NDA to be diminished. There are too many skeletons in too many closets in Hollywood and the biggest obstacle to them ever being made public is the threat of legal action.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I believe that's premature myself. Unless something substantive comes out, he'll be doing something in the near future. In fact, Whedon would still be working had Justice League been a success based on what we know at present.

Yup, in Hollywood, if you are a success, you'll keep getting work no matter how much of an ******* you are. Look at James Cameron. But, if you fail, you'll never work on the big budget high profile projects again. At best, you'll be exiled to small potatoes like the CW, but only if you promise the corporate bean counters you'll stay out of trouble and keep your name out the headlines.

Sooner or later, the day will come when James Cameron will fail spectacularly and the knives will come out for him. Not that I think that's going to happen anytime soon. People have been betting against Cameron for decades now and he keeps ducking the executioner's axe.