Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Cancel culture when it goes into full witch hunt mode without much actual proof can be obnoxious. This is a time where I think it is warranted though, considering the patterns on display here and the accounts that line up from people who weren't all on the same projects together. He puffed himself up as some uber feminist and mistreated his actresses.

Let him lie in the bed he made.

The thing is that that's not my only issue with cancel culture. It's that it often lacks any sense of perspective or nuance. And sorry to be kind of mercenary about this but the creative arts do need assholes if you want great art. It sucks that this is the case but the most creative people are often the most unstable. This is why it's far more important to have, say, actors union representatives on staff or a greater level of logistic oversight from executives than simply "cancelling" the talent.

Admittedly, such a system is not in place so that does allow Whedon and those who are significantly worse than him to act in ways that aren't necessarily illegal but are grossly unprofessional, even genuinely despicable - as some of Joss' comments to and about Charisma Carpenter clearly were. The question then, of course, is what consequences should Whedon face? He absolutely should be duly punished for what he did, don't get me wrong, but is kicking him out of the industry a proportionate response or even one that's for the greater good of the industry? And I don't ask that rhetorically. Especially because if the way he is dealt with is as definitive as getting kicked out of Hollywood, does that leave space for any sort of repentance on his part down the line?

That's why regardless of the extent that Whedon is punished for his sins, I think the bigger issue here is a system that allows for employees to act with this level of impunity in the first place.

How do you do that?

If on the set of Buffy he was Hellraiser but on say Firefly he was Gentle Ben?

What was different? Did he have someone with him at all times? Was there a buffer between him and those other casts?

Better yet WHO was there that might have kept him in check or he feared? Ron Glass nor Gina Torres are not going to take crap from him on Firefly. What did Juliette Landau-a legend's daughter see? Or did he hold his tongue?

You can do that and there are folks willing to look over it. And like I said earlier-that over looking can include not HIRING certain actors.

While you can't do that to say William Shatner or Charlie Sheen or the recently fired Gina Carano-you can to a Ray Fisher.

The bully becomes the protected. Because he has a resume that says that behavior is worthy in terms of profit. Because it's easier to not hire certain folks than try to create better policies for a work environment. In some folks eyes.

Those are all absolutely perfectly good points and questions? I certainly don't have the answers but I think the industry needs to take a long hard look at itself and do something to stop the blowhards and douchebags in the industry from doing whatever they feel like.

And, actually, your inclusion of William Shatner is a particularly interesting point. Just where do we draw the line at cancelling creative types who aren't always the nicest people? I'm a big Shatner fan but he is well known to have the ego the size of the moon and could be extremely unpleasant to those he worked with but are we really going to start cancelling every movie, TV or rock star with an over-inflated ego? What about simple cases of two co-workers simply really, really detesting each other, especially where one is higher up on the power ladder than the other? What about the fact that - as is clearly the case with Joss Whedon - some people just commit the sin of playing favourites. How about Tom Cruise screaming at his underlings on the Mission Impossible set because they broke COVID regulations?

I ask all these questions because while, yes, it's perfectly reasonable for producers to not hire certain creatives with bad reputations but I'm not convinced that demanding the outright removal of such people from the industry as reasonable or realistic, and, worse, it could be an extremely slippery slope where every on-set fight or behind the scenes grudge can end up in someone suddenly becoming persona non grata in their chosen field.

I guess my point is that prevention isn't just better than the cure in this case, it's much more effective, fair, resistant to abuse and, yup, easier as well.

[SiegePerilous02]

Boreanaz has the whole issue of the allegations he settled against him, and if he gets involved, the mob could turn on him too.

They kind of already have. The allegations are worth side eying him over, but it was also settled out of court, which doesn't confirm innocence or guilt either way. He's also getting **** for locking his account even though it seems it was already locked.

Plus I've seen at least one say he was a Trump supporter, which lol I don't think so? He re-tweeted a pro-Biden tweet from Mark Hammil once. Twitter being Twiter

And I'm not sure if J August Richards will get involved

Yes, he said during the Angel reunion something along the lines of wishing both shows were more diverse. In light of what Fisher went through, maybe Richards has more to say.

[Denirac]

More from Michelle Trachtenberg

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[SiegePerilous02]

More from Michelle Trachtenberg

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Holy ****.

[BlackClaw]

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If Joss’s career wasn’t already dead, this is definitely the equivalent of a hydrogen bomb being dropped on it. Jesus.

[The Darknight Detective]

If Joss’s career wasn’t already dead, this is definitely the equivalent of a hydrogen bomb being dropped on it. Jesus.

The Fisher stuff wouldn't have killed his career, but the recent Buffy anecdotes? Yeah, he'll be lucky to have any job after this.

[WebLurker]

More from Michelle Trachtenberg

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This just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Sacred Knight]

Holy ****.

Damn. I saw the original post she made last night, but I hadn't seen that last addition yet.

[achilles]

If Joss’s career wasn’t already dead, this is definitely the equivalent of a hydrogen bomb being dropped on it. Jesus.

Not really; this was all known for years. Buffy was still going when it was publicly known.

Everyone knew Whedon was a jerk to women. But Fisher isn't a woman. He hasn't said what he's accusing Whedon of. And it ignores Johns, Berg, and the other guy.

[achilles]

The Fisher stuff wouldn't have killed his career, but the recent Buffy anecdotes? Yeah, he'll be lucky to have any job after this.

Again, why? It's just a repeat of stuff from 20 years ago.

[Sacred Knight]

These details were not known 20 years ago. All we had back then was that he and Carpenter had bad blood and that she was given a really skeevy storyline then fired for reasons revolving around her pregnancy which was considered not cool. Details though were scarce. And there certainly was nothing about Michelle over on Buffy, a friggin minor.

[The Darknight Detective]

Again, why? It's just a repeat of stuff from 20 years ago.

That new Michelle Tractenberg tweet kind of closes the lid on his career.

[Johnny]

30 year career down the drain. Just like that. Don't be dirtbags folks. You never now when it's gonna bite you in the ass.

[phantom1592]

He also asked her if she was going to abort her baby, and had been ignoring her requests to talk about her pregnancy. And then let her catch the blame for the storyline being screwed up because of it by not telling them in time, and made the pregnant woman show up at 1am for shooting. Tim Minear, one of the other writers on the show (and sidebar, his episodes were better than Joss's as a rule) backed up her claim that she had attempted to speak about her pregnancy well before the last minute.

The actresses and actors calling him toxic do not sign up for his next projects. Gellar, Carpenter, Trachtenberg, Benson, Marsters, Boreanaz, Brendon, Caulfield, etc. did not work with him again post-Buffyverse. Why do you think that is?

actually Marsters, Boreanaz and Carpeneter at least did work on two shows with him.

What I remember the most was all the actors who claimed they were agreeing to work with him whatever project it was as soon as they saw his name on teh caller ID. The story about how the musical episode happened because the cast was hanging out at Whedon's place drinking and singing around the piano....

These stories don't track with 'being around him was a nightmare. I've never associated with anyone from work outside the office. They did.

I mean bullying an actress (at least how Cordelia phrases it in her story) because she's pregnant is abusive.
Toxic is over-used tho.

Debatable.

For many liberals 'What are you going to do?' is the first question they ask whenever they hear someone is pregnant. I personally hate the idea that abortion is so accepted that people talk about it so flippantly, but its definitely a thing.

As for working while pregnant... that's a really tricky situation that a lot of people deal with. There are a lot of people depending on you doing your job... and when personal decisions get in the way of doing that job... there's a problem. That baby and her family may be the most important thing in the world to the parents... but only the parents. There is an entitlement that just because someone is pregnant then the world will revolve around them... When the reality is that these shows have a LOT of people who rely on things going as planned... and those 22-24 episode seasons are brutal for filming. They aren't filming at 1am because they want to... it's because they need to keep these things moving.

I can honestly see him resenting her for throwing a wrench in his show. And really... i'm not sure he's wrong. When Cordelia got pregnant from angel's kid that show went downhill fast. That really was the turning point that ruined it. Being a Buffy show, he probably should have killed her off and then ressurected her whenever it was more convienent.... But was it 'abusive'? I don't know... I wasn't there. She's the only one even close to going into details... and those details aren't that bad.

[phantom1592]

That new Michelle Tractenberg tweet kind of closes the lid on his career.

Yeah... that's a definite issue. Again, needs some details because now what's implied is outright criminal. Did he use bad language around her? did he say stuff to make her cry? Did he get handsy or molesty? That's kind of what the first thought was when I read it... is that accurate or is it that an exaggeration? Because criminal charges should be filed.

Honestly, I could actually see THAT being a real thing... Even back in the day between Dawn, Fred, and River there was a lot of young, 'ballerina' types being pushed in his shows and i remember commenting that Joss must have 'a type'. I'd hate for that to really be the case.