Warner Bros/Joss Whedon/Ray Fisher Justice League

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I think Buffy does have feminist aspects to it, if only by happy accident instead of by design. It basically took the solo teen superhero model established by Spider-Man and applied it to a teenaged girl, who ended up being a well rounded, relateable and heroic character. It's really all of those qualities that make Buffy a feminist character, more so than the fact that she can hit really hard and kill monsters. And she has some other complex (for the time) female characters to bounce off of and have complex dynamics with, and who often had dynamics with each other: Willow, Tara, Cordelia, her mother, Dawn, Faith, Anya and Glory. The show passed the Bechdel test quite often with all of those characters.

It stumbled in a lot of other areas though. It's all mostly white women of a certain body type who get the focus. Tara is passed off as the "heavy" one despite the fact that she's not heavy by any stretch of the imagination. The POC women aren't great: Kendra is killed off quickly, the First Slayer is presented as a sub-human monster, and Rona is obnoxious (but at least she lives). The show had a trailblazing queer relationship, and it went into the Bury Your Gays trope by killing Tara. Buffy got sexually assaulted and her feelings are glossed over in favor of redeeming her attacker.

It might be easier to forgive the show all of these things for being a product of the 90s and having a lot of legitimately great other stuff to counter balance it, but Joss bought into his hype as a feminist ally and it makes it all come off as hypocritical and tone deaf

I see what you're saying and your criticisms are all accurate (if dictated by norms of the time) but I can forgive it its context pretty easily. Most of all, though, I do genuinely wonder if Joss' clear hypocrisy was actually something he was aware of or did he specifically buy into the hype and cultivate a super liberal persona because he had trouble reconciling his intentions and his major issues with power dynamics and maybe even with women. None of this is to excuse his ghastly behaviour, you understand, which he should be held accountable for (even if I'm not convinced he should be "cancelled") and I really am just going off on a tangent but it's super interesting to view Buffy in the face of these revelations. Again, not to "cancel" it because it's still great regardless of its creator's ultimate intentions but it does give it a whole other layer.

[WebLurker]

I only got to watching Firefly during quarantine (also enjoyed it), but it had some very red flags when it comes to the "Whedon is a huge feminist" narrative.

Been awhile since I watched though it. What stood out to you?

[Thezmage]

Yeah, I doubt Whedon was any different than before or after working at Marvel, so either 1) Feige told him right at the start to straighten up and fly right or 2) something(s) happened on set that we don't know about (yet) and Feige was able to sweep it under the carpet.

Or 3) The set and the cast didn't give him enough opportunity to actually practice any of his predatory behavior so he didn't do any of it.

[The Darknight Detective]

Or 3) The set and the cast didn't give him enough opportunity to actually practice any of his predatory behavior so he didn't do any of it.

Why? Because the Marvel magic wand can even turn a Charles Manson into an altar boy if he were working on a movie?

Seriously, I could see Whedon on his best behavior with the stars because of their status, but I can't see any reason for him to have necessarily behaved with the "nobodies" unless 1) or 2) from my previous post occurred.

[stargazer01]

Has Ben Affleck or Amy Adams showed support to Ray Fisher accusations?

[achilles]

Or 3) The set and the cast didn't give him enough opportunity to actually practice any of his predatory behavior so he didn't do any of it.

That is something I'd kind of like to know. Did he in fact behave on The Avengers? And if he's so prone to being...the kind of guy he seems to be, how did they keep him in check on the movie? That'd be interesting to find out IMO.

[achilles]

Has Ben Affleck or Amy Adams showed support to Ray Fisher accusations?

I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard a peep from them. Not that it means anything in particular.

[stargazer01]

I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard a peep from them. Not that it means anything in particular.

Of course it would mean a lot since they also worked with Whedon.

I do remember Affleck more recently saying good things about Geoff Johns, though.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

That is something I'd kind of like to know. Did he in fact behave on The Avengers? And if he's so prone to being...the kind of guy he seems to be, how did they keep him in check on the movie? That'd be interesting to find out IMO.

Like I say, Joss fundamentally seems to be a bully and bullies tend to cower in the face of those who are more powerful than them or even those who stand up to them. Avengers had a) big name actors who could crush him like a bug if they wanted to and b) clearly extensive oversight by Feige and other execs. Which is why, as I've repeated time and time again, while Whedon is to blame for the bullying, he is not the main problem - a system that didn't constrain this sort of behaviour is.

Has Ben Affleck or Amy Adams showed support to Ray Fisher accusations?

There's no way in hell that Joss would have picked on them. They're respected, famous industry veterans with tons of clout. People might focus on Fisher's race but the real difference between him and his co-stars is clearly his status in Hollywood (aside for being, from what I can tell, the least talented and charismatic cast member).

[stargazer01]

There's no way in hell that Joss would have picked on them. They're respected, famous industry veterans with tons of clout. People might focus on Fisher's race but the real difference between him and his co-stars is clearly his status in Hollywood (aside for being, from what I can tell, the least talented and charismatic cast member).

So, Affleck and Adams won't risk their reputations for Fisher? Jason Momoa showed support, though he didn't give any details either. Has he spoken more? I just find it interesting that noone else from the JL cast has said something.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

So, Affleck and Adams won't risk their reputations for Fisher? Jason Momoa showed support, though he didn't give any details either. Has he spoken more? I just find it interesting that noone else from the JL cast has said something.

From what we can tell, that's because Whedon played it smartly. Most of the Buffy stars believed and supported the few actresses who accused Joss but it doesn't seem like they really knew what was going on. He seemed to do his bullying mostly behind closed doors.

Edit: Plus they might just not want to comment on something they don't know about. While it's interesting to hear the support of the various Whenonverse actors and writers, they aren't under any obligation to voice their support in public. I mean, David Boreanaz has clearly been supporting Charisma in private and he only unlocked his social media to offer a quick statement of support that was clearly done because of external pressure.

[Frontier]

From what we can tell, that's because Whedon played it smartly. Most of the Buffy stars believed and supported the few actresses who accused Joss but it doesn't seem like they really knew what was going on. He seemed to do his bullying mostly behind closed doors.

In true bully fashion...

[Holt]

Affleck had his own minor #MeToo moment pop up (not to mention the allegations against his brother) that was quickly eclipsed by bigger things. I wouldn't be surprised if he's kept out of the discourse because he doesn't want people digging too deep into that.

[achilles]

Of course it would mean a lot since they also worked with Whedon.

I do remember Affleck more recently saying good things about Geoff Johns, though.

No, I meant not that them NOT speaking means anything.

[lefthanded]

Why? Because the Marvel magic wand can even turn a Charles Manson into an altar boy if he were working on a movie?

Seriously, I could see Whedon on his best behavior with the stars because of their status, but I can't see any reason for him to have necessarily behaved with the "nobodies" unless 1) or 2) from my previous post occurred.

With Buffy and Angel, it is the tv stars (more specifically, supporting tv stars) being preyed upon. In contrast, it is probably harder for Joss to prey on movie stars unless they are relatively unknown (like Fisher). The movie producers siding with Joss over Fisher when it was happening is Hollywood siding with the 'power' over the 'powerless'

With the Avengers, you have the majority of the cast being famous (white) males and one female. The men have been in successful movies and are well known. The female, Scarlett, likewise, has enough clout in the industry that Joss is not gonna mess with her (Although, in light of the accusations now, Black Widow's storyline in AoU is definitely a lot worse than before). The one POC is Sam Jackson, who Joss is definitely not going to mess with.

All these behaviors seem consistent with a person in power taking advantage of those with less power.