Amazing Spider-Man: The Sins of Norman Osborn SPOILERS/DISCUSSION

[xpyred]

Here is my problem with Gwen as Kindred right from the beginning. What did she do that was so bad that warranted her going to Hell? Being mean to Aunt May? Supporting Sam Bullett? Shacking up with Osborn? If that is the standard then everyone short of Mother Theresa goes to Hell. I am looking at Gabriel, Ezekiel and No One as my choices. Harry looks too obvious.

Don't forget that Kingpin also bowed to Kindred. What kind of power would Gwen have had to get that to happen?
Gabriel could work since we haven't seen him since Sins Remembered. My issue is that (how I read it at least) that Kindred seemed to have been dead before mysterio killed himself in the daredevil arc

[NC_Yankee]

Mmm
Back in the Absolute Carnage tie-in issues, most of the Flashbacks were focused on Harry's condition at the time, and I can totally see Harry being Kindred, if you consider his death (back when he was the Green Goblin) the end of his story
I know it quite contradicts (or at least seems to do) with everything Harry-related post-BND, but with everything Spencer had pulled up successfully this run, I trust him completely

Wild-take: Kindred is the real Harry, and an LMD (or Mysterio-built Android or the like) took his place post-BND

Spencer has invested a lot of time and effort into this Kindred story. I suspect he knows that a predictable outcome like Harry would not go over well. Would it enrage people like Gwen or a child ( born or unborn) would no. But a long mystery story with a poor outcome ( see Clone Saga) would help to define his run on Spider-Man ( and not in a good way ( think Conway and Clone Saga)).

[Peregrine]

I’m curious as to when Julia got all her powers back.

[NC_Yankee]

I’m curious as to when Julia got all her powers back.

This is one of the reasons I am thinking about The Beyonder and this Kindred arc being a test of Peter and tricking the readers. We know Beyonder has that ability he did it before. I also wonder what did Osborn do to Sin Eater that makes him want to kill him? I have never seen an issue where Norman has anything to do with him. That is something else that makes me think that everything is not what it seems.

[Digifiend]

I’m curious as to when Julia got all her powers back.

Probably in Clone Conspiracy. Cassandra Webb was among the characters resurrected by the cloning process, so at least temporarily, Julia was no longer Madame Web. You'll notice that Julia also no longer seemed to be blind from that point (in the Prowler tie-in then, and in Sins Rising now).

[TheCape]

Speaking of Harry, is weird that in the last issue when Peter talked about what Norman took away from him they show his death from Spec 200, in spite of him being alive right now, i don't think that it means anything, but i find the detail kind of funny.

[Huntsman Spider]

whats so special about Dr.Kafka what did she do in the spiderman mythos

She was a psychiatrist who played a major role in JM DeMatteis' two arcs of Superior Spider-Man. Later, she was important to a few Dan Slott stories, in which she was killed off.

Yeah bro, it was good to see all of these perspectives. The Order of the Web's attempt to stop Spider-Man makes sense. Osborn wouldn't be killed from the Sin-Eater, but Pete could die trying to protect Osborn. Speaking of which, Norman still can throw down. Seeing him slam that Sin-Eater follower's head into the wall was brutal.

As for my thoughts, wow, a lot of surprises happened in this issue. I mean, they just came one after the other, y'know? The Order of the Web's revelations, Spidey's teaming up with Norman who has been preparing a secret room filled with goblin gear ready for Kindred, while just earlier Sin-Eater absorbed (gasp!) Mr. Negative's powers, and uses them to mind control Dr. Kafka who helps open up the cell to (gasp again!) the Juggernaut! Holy crap! And all of that takes place in the cramped, confined spaces of Ravencroft! That made the surprises feel really tense. At the same time, nothing felt rushed or cluttered.

All in all, it was a great issue. And I'm glad I picked it up because I thought it would be a needless tie-in!



She appeared in issues of Spectacular Spider-Man, no? I recall her being there during the Harry Osborn Green Goblin and Vermin years of the title.

Yeah, she worked as the head psychotherapist in Ravencroft during DeMatteis's run and later in the Spider-Man books. She was very important in the sense of being a representation of psychiatry that didn't demonize or belittle psychotherapists like so much of mainstream/popular media was inclined towards in those days.

And yes, Norman looks ready for a fight . . . and he remembers his encounter with Kindred back in the Absolute Carnage tie-in. That's gonna be interesting.

[Spidey_62]

I wonder if Norman will have a big presence in the Last Remains arc or if it's pretty much gonna be confined to ASM#850, because this issue makes it sound pretty straight-up like Norman's in this with Peter for the long haul. Of course that could just be referring to the Sin-Eater situation playing out, but from today's December solicitations it looks like that stuff is still going on through Last Remains. Norman being used here like this, plus all the visions of Peter dying from the other spider heroes, plus didn't Kindred say back in the Absolute Carnage arc that they wouldn't be the one to end Spidey cause ultimately Norman's the big arch enemy? Or am I misremembering that? Pretty sure Kindred said Norman in the end is the one that it will always come down to.

[xpyred]

didn't Kindred say back in the Absolute Carnage arc that they wouldn't be the one to end Spidey cause ultimately Norman's the big arch enemy? Or am I misremembering that? Pretty sure Kindred said Norman in the end is the one that it will always come down to.

Now i can't remember but i believe Kindred said Norman would never be the one to beat Peter

[Huntsman Spider]

Now i can't remember but i believe Kindred said Norman would never be the one to beat Peter

Because Norman already beat Peter a long time ago in the one way that mattered most --- he destroyed Peter's innocence by killing Gwen, the first woman he truly loved. As Kurt Busiek wrote in the Spider-Man prose novel Goblin Moon, though somewhat paraphrased: "His childhood might have died with Uncle Ben, but his innocence had died with Gwen. It was the Green Goblin who did that. It was Norman Osborn." That is and remains Norman's ultimate victory over Peter.

[Frontier]

Because Norman already beat Peter a long time ago in the one way that mattered most --- he destroyed Peter's innocence by killing Gwen, the first woman he truly loved. As Kurt Busiek wrote in the Spider-Man prose novel Goblin Moon, though somewhat paraphrased: "His childhood might have died with Uncle Ben, but his innocence had died with Gwen. It was the Green Goblin who did that. It was Norman Osborn." That is and remains Norman's ultimate victory over Peter.

I mean, I dunno about that...I think Gwen's death definitely left it's trauma but I think Peter had been through to much by that point to still be "innocent," what with all the stuff with Aunt May, Betty, George Stacy, and Harry.

[Huntsman Spider]

I mean, I dunno about that...I think Gwen's death definitely left it's trauma but I think Peter had been through to much by that point to still be "innocent," what with all the stuff with Aunt May, Betty, George Stacy, and Harry.

Maybe a little too melodramatic, I'll admit, but in the sense that Peter was dreaming of a real future with Gwen . . . and then Norman shattered his hopes and dreams for that future by killing her.

[TheCape]

Because Norman already beat Peter a long time ago in the one way that mattered most --- he destroyed Peter's innocence by killing Gwen, the first woman he truly loved. As Kurt Busiek wrote in the Spider-Man prose novel Goblin Moon, though somewhat paraphrased: "His childhood might have died with Uncle Ben, but his innocence had died with Gwen. It was the Green Goblin who did that. It was Norman Osborn." That is and remains Norman's ultimate victory over Peter.

Honestly Gwen's death doesn't compare to what happen to Mayday, now that is a victory that Norman hold over Peter and way more tragic. But Marvel pretends that it never happened for good or for ill.

[t-spider]

I'm guessing the villains who got 'cleansed' will get their powers back one Sin-Eater is defeated... or killed... or whatever. And a Spidey/GG team-up? No 'Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend here'. More 'Enemy of my Enemy... is still my Enemy, and I hate your guts'

[Huntsman Spider]

Honestly Gwen's death doesn't compare to what happen to Mayday, now that is a victory that Norman hold over Peter and way more tragic. But Marvel pretends that it never happened for good or for ill.

Much like they (tried to) do with the entire Clone Saga, more or less. The last time I recall it getting referenced was in Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man, with a comment to the effect of Norman having baby Mayday killed to punish Peter for "causing" his son Harry's death.

I'm guessing the villains who got 'cleansed' will get their powers back one Sin-Eater is defeated... or killed... or whatever. And a Spidey/GG team-up? No 'Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend here'. More 'Enemy of my Enemy... is still my Enemy, and I hate your guts'

"But right now, we have a worse enemy that's gunning for both of us, so we have to suck it up and work together."