X-Men #12 spoilers (prelude to X of Swords)

[Beetle]

I read Hickman's Avengers, I remember how bored out of my mind I was when we got descriptions on the Ivory Kings, Black Priests, Mapmakers and whatever the hell else he introduced

Arakko and Amneth and all of these Swordbearers actually make sense

[loke13]

Have to admit i feel similar. It's a big detailed world building effort, that i have to respect, but for something which doesn't feel like it will be around for long, be re-used again much (after Dawn of X) and bites with the X-men's general setting (modern day reflection of society via a super hero lens and urban fantasy) or the Marvel Universe at large.

It also feels like the various other attempts at building up a big mystical enemy faction to threaten the heros, but without much staying power after it had it's use.

Like the invaders from the Ghost Box in Astonishing X-men. Which even got a two issue mini to detail just how dangerous they are, showing them having beaten various other incarnations of the X-men in the past across the multiverse. Only for the X-men to beat them by just firing a death star style laser at them. So the destroyers of countless X-men across the multiverse never got referenced again.

Or that multiverse conquerer from X-treme X-men who had a thing for Storm. Or the Neo, the "to mutants what mutants are to humans", who have more or less become a joke pretty quickly. The list goes on.

I also get reminded to the Final Horsemen of Apocalypse, with their highly detailed and cool designs, impressive presentation of powers and detailed backstory. But got beaten and then forgotten for the time being.

It all can make for good stories in the moment, but not necessarily something to be remembered beyond personal little favorit bits of some readers.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, i can certainly understand people being extremely excited for this event and the world building in this issue, but the track record for grand otherworldly enemies to stick around or even become regulars in the X-men mythos seems quite lower than, for memorable but less impressive smaller enemies, who are more bound to Earth or the Marvel Universe at large.

More often than not the World building is more for Hickman and his story rather than for the fans or the implication that it might be reused somewhere down the line. He just likes to create very authentic and detailed worlds. I think a comic book writer foremost thought is to create a creative work of fiction that's memorable rather than hoping that some writer somewhere down the line is going to reuse their concept and most likely butcher it.

[pkingdom]

Have to admit i feel similar. It's a big detailed world building effort, that i have to respect, but for something which doesn't feel like it will be around for long, be re-used again much (after Dawn of X) and bites with the X-men's general setting (modern day reflection of society via a super hero lens and urban fantasy) or the Marvel Universe at large.

It all can make for good stories in the moment, but not necessarily something to be remembered beyond personal little favorit bits of some readers.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, i can certainly understand people being extremely excited for this event and the world building in this issue, but the track record for grand otherworldly enemies to stick around or even become regulars in the X-men mythos seems quite lower than, for memorable but less impressive smaller enemies, who are more bound to Earth or the Marvel Universe at large.

Again, the Final Host. Or even the stupid god robot from Fallen Angels! It spent most of the 'fight' with Psylock just begging her not to kill it. Big mystical threats don't tend to matter much in the long run. Essentially, villains with more personal presences and characters like Trask end up having more of an impact.

More often than not the World building is more for Hickman and his story rather than for the fans or the implication that it might be reused somewhere down the line. He just likes to create very authentic and detailed worlds. I think a comic book writer foremost thought is to create a creative work of fiction that's memorable rather than hoping that some writer somewhere down the line is going to reuse their concept and most likely butcher it.

That just sounds like he's not good at dealing with the medium he's working with. How many of his big idea concepts have actually stuck around or been used or referenced later on? This just feels like yet another layer of nonsense on Apocalypse' backstory to make him an even more confusing character, and it will all be ignored later.

To be clear, it might still be a good story in and of itself. Its just not quite as original for me as it might sound. And I'm well aware most of the others here are enjoying Hickman's work more than I am

[Tycon]

This issue really was a a boring waste.
"Oh you want your favorite characters? Too bad they do nothing. Now here's page after page of Hickman's retcon fanfic and OCs"

Why even read if it makes you this miserable?

[HandofPrometheus]

I still wanna know how Surtur's sword got on Earth.

[Viteh]

There's one thing I'm still trying to figure out. How did this all go down in Moira's 9th life?
We know most of it took place thousands of years ago, so things happened exactly the same up until Moira's birth at the very least.

The timeline in HoXPoX says that Moira and Apocalypse "rescued" the original Horsemen in the year 24 (HoX takes place in the year 52).

The Summoner mentioned that they had been holding out the horde for a hundred years, so even 28 years ago they would still be under siege.

I guess it's possible that 28 years ago, Arakko was still holding relatively well, and Apocalypse and Moira simply rescued the Horsemen, without much trouble.

Which also makes me think we may see Moira in this crossover. Perhaps Magneto or Xavier will ask her what she knows about Arakko.

[numberthirty]

This issue really was a a boring waste.
"Oh you want your favorite characters? Too bad they do nothing. Now here's page after page of Hickman's retcon fanfic and OCs"

Maybe the X-men comics should have the X-men in them.

Why even read if it makes you this miserable?

To be completely serious for a second...

Scourge?

Send me a pm with a list of your favorite characters. I can let you know when they turn up, and folks who dig the current story can just keep right on trucking.

Win/Win

[Grunty]

More often than not the World building is more for Hickman and his story rather than for the fans or the implication that it might be reused somewhere down the line. He just likes to create very authentic and detailed worlds. I think a comic book writer foremost thought is to create a creative work of fiction that's memorable rather than hoping that some writer somewhere down the line is going to reuse their concept and most likely butcher it.

Those are fair points and it does ultimately come down to every reader's personal taste on what ever they let themself get enamored by the world and visions he creates here or feel uninterested or at least less excited by it (or at least for some of it's parts)

The thing for me personal, is just that after years of following the comics, i do see the X-men and their world as one of a long continuity of stories and characters, in which various new minds add pieces or build on existing ones.
Of course there are stories which can be argued to be "timeless classics" that work easily without knowing continuity. With readers capable of just puzzeling all important backstory details together from the dialoge. But there are also those which require a good understanding of previous continuity or at least the willingness to go to wikipedia or fan sites for long articles to understand why characters are where they are and why the whole situation is the way it is at that point.
Which i would argue is what Hickman's current status quo for the X-men is based on after all.

The whole Nation of Krakoa setup and even the lives of Moira X are centered around using the past 50 years of continuity to his world building advantage (by also dropping a massive retcon on them though). Without all these stories, the good and bad, which shaped the X-men and their continuity, this setup wouldn't wouldn't be able to work.
Not saying a complete fresh (non-X-men) story couldn't start from the same position, but that in a different pre-existing story, he couldn't have as easily established the current status quo.

We can't unbound this story from continuity when it's heavily based on it. It's not just his creative work, it's a pre-existing one he is working with. His creative vision in this case is not unbound or standing on it's own, but having a basis by which it could be compared.

Even an out of continuity story will end up compared to the stories in continuity if they use the same foundation of setting and characters.

So i think, it's also fair to assess the value this current story has to the continuity and X-men mythos going forward.

And in this case i see a complex world build but for something which doesn't feel like having much staying power or the ability to stay on it's own outside of the long continuity the writers are using to form it.

However only the end of this crossover will allow to determine what ever it was "memorable" and/or "successfull" as a story, which is also a personal preference after all. With the added dimension of the end of the entire Moira X saga potential requiring to reflect on this part of it a second time.

But until then there will be those for whom this is all great, all bad and the various viewpoints in between. Nobody should be discouraged by my comment to enjoy the story, while i stay sceptic on it's overall quality and value.

[the nomad]

Okay, yeah I'm confused. I have no idea what I just read . LOL! Something about Apocalypse, some swords and Amenth or however it's spelled. I haven't seen Apocalypse since the whole Resurrection of powers ritual. Do I need to pick up Excalibur to understand what's going on in this issue. I love Hickman and his world building, I've been a fan of his since his awesome stint on Fantastic Four, but this issue was a bit hard to follow.

[Celestialbodies]

This whole Arrako vs Amenth Demons kind of reminds me of Azazel’s Neyaphem vs the Cheyarafim mutants. It’s seems like a long shot, but maybe they are related? Where did Amenth come from and is it the dimension Nightcrawler teleports through? Is Azazel and Selene from the First Generation of Mutants?

Also why is Burke missing from the Externals?

Hickman is gonna take us back to shield reference. Everything he has done for marvel. Is all connected and one big story.

Apocalypse the great reseeder!

The first mutant of the second generation. I wonder if this is going to connect to externals

Are the first generation the Externals?

Thought the same about the first generation of mutants possibly being the Externals.


Moreover, loved the issue, Hickman has a vision for the X-men and while I personally don't agree with some choices. Such as lack of meaningful interactions between characters who would normally be a lot more familiar or at least polarizing on a consistent basis. That aside his ideas are top notch and hasn't been as heavily featured amongst the X-franchise since Morrison.

For that I can at least tune in to see where or how far this goes, excitement for Swords of X increased.

[Dipter]

I'm curious to see if X of Swords will become more or less complicated from this point on.

[gambitxremy]

I'm curious to see if X of Swords will become more or less complicated from this point on.

Everything Hickman does is complicated and complex lol.

I love what hickmans done with apocalypse and to see him actually care about his family.
I want to see chamber and blink hang out with summoner

[Basilisk]

Actually enjoyed this issue. Granted it was more informational than action but it is my hope that less pages will be required in the X of swords books now describing back story and we can move more quickly with the current story. Only time will tell though.

I actually think that Apocalypse is going to be in for a rude awakening though. It feels that Summoner is setting him up and planning to betray him. Think when the truth comes out Apocalypse is going to have some serious explaining to do.

[zinderel]

I thoroughly enjoyed this issue!

Man, tho...Poccy making all these sacrifices, and it’s all gonna blow up in his face.

I wonder if we’ll have a Definitelypermanantlyuntilweneedhimagain dead Poccy after X of Swords...or, more shocking perhaps, a CONTRITE one who admits he messed up...

[Dipter]

I actually think that Apocalypse is going to be in for a rude awakening though. It feels that Summoner is setting him up and planning to betray him. Think when the truth comes out Apocalypse is going to have some serious explaining to do.

Betrayal is definitely coming. I don’t think the summoner will be totally evil though. I feel like he’ll be a sympathetic pawn torn between both sides.