Excalibur #12 Starring Candra (SPOILERS)

[Technopriest]

So I'm curious and I just want to know people's opinions. Do you guys think the book is intentionally held back because it's meant as s sidepiece to xmen or do you think the writing would be the same if it was a standalone outside of Hickmans direction? Obviously people with previous Tini Howard experience can add good commentary to this

I don’t judge books based on previous experiences with the writer, I just can judge what I have in front of me at the moment. My issue is not that Excalibur is subservient to Hickman’s X-Men story, is that is not even good as a side-story to it. It doesn’t add anything to the overall narrative as do the other titles, the characters are in their majority interchangeable, and the overall plotting and pacing feel off. This title would have been served better by being an Apocalypse solo (which in many ways it is). His story bests are the only ones that matter at the end for Tini.

[Rnap22]

So I'm curious and I just want to know people's opinions. Do you guys think the book is intentionally held back because it's meant as s sidepiece to xmen or do you think the writing would be the same if it was a standalone outside of Hickmans direction? Obviously people with previous Tini Howard experience can add good commentary to this

I think her ideas are good, but her execution and follow through are poor. Every issue and sometimes panel to panel seem disjointed. She devoted an entire issue to alt Captain Britains that Jamie was creating and they’re just captured by Saturnyne. I’m sure they’ll be free or useful during the crossover, but her setup issue for them was confusing. Betsy should be a star of the series, but she’s not and that’s ok, but this is the least interesting Betsy I’ve read. It sucks that the character that I get the book for is so uninteresting in this. Others that I like are also flat and boring. She seems to write a good Apocalypse, but that’s it.

[loke13]

I think her ideas are good, but her execution and follow through are poor. Every issue and sometimes panel to panel seem disjointed. She devoted an entire issue to alt Captain Britains that Jamie was creating and they’re just captured by Saturnyne. I’m sure they’ll be free or useful during the crossover, but her setup issue for them was confusing. Betsy should be a star of the series, but she’s not and that’s ok, but this is the least interesting Betsy I’ve read. It sucks that the character that I get the book for is so uninteresting in this. Others that I like are also flat and boring. She seems to write a good Apocalypse, but that’s it.

Couldn't agree more I can't even recall any other character having a meaningful character arc in these past 12 issues except maybe Rictor. The whole Sleeping Beauty Rogue and Dragon Shogo just seem like gimmicks rather than any meaningful character moments.

[Psy-lock]

This book still feels like an Apocalypse solo with the rest of the team walking in by accident.

[Malachi]

As a Gambit fan and a optimistic person I’m always torn before reading a issue of Excalibur. The general excuse is that Gambit hasn’t gotten that many panels so if Tini where to try then she could write a decent Remy. Now we have gotten those panels and it didn’t work.

Overall the plot with the gem that was introduced last issue and solved in this was a circular structure. A filler. It didn’t lead to anything in particular and it didn’t give us any insight or development into Gambit. It’s the same as before. He doesn’t trust apocalypse and will deal with him later on. Nothing new. Tragically it represented a chance for Tini to make Gambit an active character and despite years of characterization he didn’t make that choice. He remains a passive character. An odd choice for both he and Rogue. Both usually very active in dealing with situations.

So much of this run has happened offpanel. We are just to assume certain things. It reads like a first draft often. Where the writer has it all in her head and forgets to put everything on paper for us readers. Where the flow is uneven and focused on parts where perhaps it doesn’t need to be.

It’s hard not to feel that swords of X paints a clear picture that Rogue, Gambit and Jubilee aren’t that important. Still Rictor only seems to be his powers. I don’t know much about him as a character and so far I haven’t felt that has had any impact on the story. He is just a vessel to be shaped and used by apocalypse.

Wasn’t Rictor a member of the team, X-factor perhaps, that dealt with the Cannonball externals plot? If so shouldn’t that have some relevance?

[Daedra]

This book still feels like an Apocalypse solo with the rest of the team walking in by accident.

very true, also if I may add none of the team members aside from A seems to be as smart as they'd like to think they are, it's almost like Poccy choose them for this very reason, they keep thinking they can "keep him in check" but they end up being mostly a bunch of useful idiots

[ExodusCloak]

Is Cannonball not invited to be an external? Anyway Selene is way older and more powerful I don't think she should be taking orders from A

[ChronoRogue]

To be honest, Tini actually set up a good plot point in issue 5 to tie Gambit and Rogue to the story more. Rogue killing Apocalypse should've had more severe political consequences. Not only he is an extremely powerful mutant, both in power and influence, but he's a Council Member. Why wasn't she punished for killing him? I know he wanted it but still...

Tini could have used that as a plot point to manipulate Rogue and Gambit more clearly into the team. Have them keep Apocalpypse's resurrection a secret, maybe using Rogue's long-forgotten connection to Hope to buy them a favor from the Five, and have Apocalypse blackmail them into helping him in Otherworld. Not only would this have increased tension but it would give Rogue & Gambit an understandable reason to be doing Poccy's deeds instead of sacrificing their intelligence to make story ends meet.

Mauraders is understandly setting up a big coup for Sebastion and seems to understand that killing a Council member is big deal.

I still don't really got any idea on how Jubilee would've been brought in but her addition to the book is still questionable at this point. Jubilee I think fits a book like X-Factor or New Mutants more. I would've added Pixie (Welsh but still got a connection to magic) instead.

[king of hybrids]

Is Cannonball not invited to be an external? Anyway Selene is way older and more powerful I don't think she should be taking orders from A

Depending on when this takes place in relation to CA, Selene’s probably in relatively deep doodoo for A) breaking the first law a lot, B) Squandering whatever stake Krakoa had in the Power Elite and C) resurrected the OG Red Skull

[ChronoRogue]

Yea Selene is possibly older and more powerful than Apocalypse. Agree that it's bleh she takes orders from him, but then again it does seem like she likes playing games in circles of powerful and morally defunct people.

Like the Hellfire Club. She could've wiped the floor with Sebastian and the rest, but she seemed content just watching things unfold most of the time.

[numberthirty]

It does not bode well for X of Swords that Excalibur is what is mainly leading in to it.

Since this really was not the case, "X Of Swords" should be just fine.

[Alphaxman]

This issue was fine, but I had too many questions, some material to the story but most are just petty titpicking. In terms of the story, I'm confused like many here, on Rictor's motivation and power-up. Did :A: use his mutant "magic" to give Ric elemental power over earth and plants? Does he only have these powers for a limited time? From the cover of issue 16 the face paint and cloak are gone from his look, so I wonder if he'll go back to just vibration-based powers. And why is he willing to do everything A asked, to the point of killing fellow mutants?

As for the Externals, I really couldn't care less about that group of losers. For people who has been around for centuries, they're not very smart. The only one I like is Selene, but she was much too passive here. Hickman and his group of writers really need to give her something to do. A and Sinister shouldn't be the only Big Bads machinating behind the senses. I want to see her PLOT too!!!
But I do like how Hickman has divided mutantkind into generations. And that A is the first of the second generation, leaving us to assume that Selene is the first of the first generation. Which makes me wonder if the High Lords are the first immortals of each descending generation with Candra (now that Sam is not seen as one anymore) being the youngest. I admit I don't know how that would work, because there is such a large gap between Selene and A (maybe around 5 thousand years?), but possibly with each following generation the time between shrinks. I don't know why I'm musing... we'll never find out, because no one at Marvel gives a flip about them.

[JB]

One of the books biggest disappointments is not establishing or making clear why this team is getting involved with otherworld. I get helping out for the initial arc because of happenstance but we're twelve issues in and we till have no idea why Jubilee, Gambit or Rogue are here.

No one outside of Rictor and Betsy seem to have any connection magic and otherworld. Meanwhile the team are brainless and follow Apocalypse plans. It's not like he is giving ultimatums or hard choices, they seriously do not seem to be able to think for themselves.

•-[A]-• gave Rogue that power upgrade moment so perhaps everyone is waiting for their moment? But •-[A]-• did tell them the story of his horsemen at the beginning of issue #9 when they were doing the ritual so they're aware of his plans. Saving long lost mutants sounds like something our X-Men would sign up for.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

Yeah I'm also very confused... Rictor calls Apocalypse on being manipulative in this issue, but they still enable almost all of his actions.

This aspect was odd for sure
I enjoy the lore in this issue and the series, but there are definitely "take you out of the moment" points. That Rictor change of heart on a dime, Gambit sacrificing Candra so coldly, the Externals being temporarily killed off by a now lava controlling Rictor of all people (if it was Apocalypse or Apocalypse, Selene and Gideon combined I'd buy it since they outpower the other Externals since Absalom, Crule, and Nicodemus aren't powerhouses and Candra was missing most of her power which was in the gem, leaving only Garbha Sien as someone comparable to those three in any way on a power level).

Nothing on Burke? He is missing in the entire issue correct?

He was temporarily killed off in that X-Force flashback storyline and was reborn through his External abilities as a baby.

I actually enjoyed this issue for the most part, but was a tad confused...

So are the "dead" externals really dead? Or they cannot be re-born until the gate to Otherworld is destroyed?

Their energies are essentially suspended in the crystals, they aren't truly dead, they just cannot be re-born as their energies cannot traverse out of the crystals.

Yeah it's weird because Apocalypse was killed earlier in this run to power the Krakoan gate to Otherworld but he got resurrected no problem in the next issue

See I'm hoping Apocalypse forcing Rogue to absorb his energies and then Apocalypse being reborn through the Krakoa Five gets a storyline payoff as Apocalypse's energies are still in Rogue and he can still be reborn. I was hoping to see it payoff earlier in that Apocalypse takes over Rogue or something similar and we get dual Apocalypses acting under one will or whatnot (not to erase Rogue, she'd of course come back). I thought that could have been his plan.

[Drakeon]

Modern writers do not seem to get the characters that they write. Everyone is OOC these days. Not to mention the Krakoa era has everyone acting strange as it is.