Which Superman writer was handed the biggest opportunity?

[JAK]

Damn straight. Personally I think Stern may have been the best of them, but that entire group, writers and artists both, accomplished something we haven't seen before or since. Back when DC was doing those weekly books like 52 and Countdown, they talked about how it was such a big achievement and so hard to pull off, but the Super books had basically already done it, and maintained their momentum and quality for a huge stretch of time. There's a reason people say the triangle era is a hidden gem; it rarely gets the love and respect it deserves.

Just to put it into perspective; that run brought in two elements that have become core ideas of Superman's mythos; his marriage and his death-rebirth, and those ideas have been used for nearly three decades across multiple media formats/continuities and are nearly as entrenched as Smallville, kryptonite, and Jimmy Olsen. The vast majority of main canon runs can't imagine even leaving one idea behind that becomes half so popular, and the triangle era did it twice.

Y'all know I'm not a big fan of the early post-Crisis' take on Clark, and *I'm* saying the triangle era was f*cking genius; that tells you how good it was.

Exactly. It's why I'm such a Triangle fanboy. If I had an insane amount of disposable income, I'd tell DC that they'd never have to pay for a Superman comic again, and just ask them what they'd want to all come back and write whatever the heck they want. lol

Judging by what you and others have said, it really does seem this era is great in spite of the COIE changes, not really because of them and could have worked just as well as an outgrowth of the Pre-COIE set up.

I should get around to reading it at some point...

It's just great in general. I do think those writers could have put out the same quality of work in any era - so while I wouldn't say "in spite of," I don't think Post-Crisis was a necessary element, specifically.

Oh, you should. That was the only period that I believe Superman's comics are better than Batman as a whole, because of how Stern, Simonsons, and Jurgens are tackling Superman of John Byrne from every perspective. It's that good.

Seconded. I'd say start with MoS and work your way up (the early Byrne era, imo, reads much better as backstory since you know it's headed to a good place, and that Superman will grow past the limited mindset Byrne put him in).

I admired the way that so many writers could weave the Superman stories together in the days of Jerry Ordway, Roger Stern, Dan Jurgens and Louise Simonson--but try reading that today. Unless you have an encyclopedic memory of the whole run from Byrne through Loeb--it's maddening. You can't just pick up an issue and know exactly what's going on.

I wanted to write about Maxima, but then I realized I need to know about Draaga, so then I have to read about Superman's exile in space. If I was really serious about this, I'd likely have to go right back to MAN OF STEEL to follow all the story threads. How do we expect anyone who wasn't a fan at the time to come into this run cold and know what the hell is happening? You'd have to spend a few years to get through it all--and probably take notes so you don't get lost. Reading WAR AND PEACE is easier.

It's much less trouble to read pre-Crisis comics. You can pick up any random comic, knowing nothing, and everything you need to know is right there on the page.

To each their own, of course - I can certainly see the allure in that, and I do also enjoy the Pre-Crisis stories very much! For me, I do like the "rich history" angle more; partly because it's more true-to-life, and partly because so much can be built from it (if the writers are right). It can be tricker to pull off, but really hits the sweet spot for me when it does. Having that rich history also makes the back-issues more story-valuable; I never would have actively sought-out all those issues to the degree that I did if they weren't part of the history.. and I do think there's a charm to that.

But I also collect studio sessions of recording artists I like, so... I'm just kinda like that. LOL!

[Venceremos]

I love the whole Post-Crisis '89-'93 era the most. If I could have a comic book revival like they do old tv show revivals, I'd bring back Stern, Jurgens, Ordway, Weezie, etc. and just have them try to pick up where they left off with their version of Lois and Clark and the supporting cast of Metropolis, but with an added kid Jon (perhaps something like ~11 years after the wedding issue). Part of what made it work, though, was Mike Carlin, but sadly apparently he's a notorious sexual harasser, so he definitely can't be a part of my silly dream reunion. I just really miss the narrative magic of that time in Superman history.

[Ascended]

Judging by what you and others have said, it really does seem this era is great in spite of the COIE changes, not really because of them and could have worked just as well as an outgrowth of the Pre-COIE set up.

I should get around to reading it at some point...

Well, I suppose it's kind of impossible to say whether the triangle era is great because it built off of what Byrne did, or if it was great in spite of him. Bit of both, probably. The era was still very much a "Clark first" narrative and the character was still far less powerful than he had been and a lot of classic concepts were still missing or drastically changed. But it didn't go out of its way to insult/ignore the Kryptonian side of Superman like Byrne did, there was a fair chunk of cosmic stuff in the books, Cadmus and some other Kirby creations got a *ton* of attention, and overall I still think it's one of the best era's the franchise has *ever* had, even if its take on Superman is a bit off the mark (by my standards).

The real glory of the triangle era (other than just how tight knit and well written it all was) is the supporting cast and setting. Metropolis was never such a robust, fleshed out city as it was in the 90's, nor has the supporting cast ever been so well handled and expansive. We knew the names of Clark's favorite music albums, we knew the name of the street vendor Clark bought pretzels from, we knew the name of Perry White's *secretary* and she even had some minor subplots! This was the era when Lex Luthor really established himself as a antagonistic part of the supporting cast instead of *just* a villain, and we got some other pretty amazing bad guys out of it like Conduit and Dabney Donovan and the second Bloodsport. Some really great stories too, Exile and the D.N.Alien/Cadmus/LexCorp war, the Death of Clark Kent.....

I definitely recommend it, if you can find it. To my knowledge most of those stories were never collected.

[Flash Gordon]

Everybody coming in after Morrison, man what a sandbox to play in. Sky was the limit.

[Jim Kelly]

To each their own, of course

I think I was stating more of an objective truth than a subjective one. You and I may appreciate that long run of comics because we already read them back in the day. When I come at them again, as daunting as it is, I know what I'm looking for. Someone picking up these comics for the first time is going to have a big challenge on their hands. Even if that challenge is rewarding, it's not something that can be done in a day. So there's a big hurdle of time, patience and memory before one can come away with an understanding of that epoch.

The further we get away from this period in comics, how many new readers are actually going to make the commitment? If all a person has to do is read one trade paperback, they are more likely to do that than if they have to read twenty trade paperbacks. Therefore, most new fans will probably only have a Coles Notes understanding of that run.

[Laufeyson]

Everybody coming in after Morrison, man what a sandbox to play in. Sky was the limit.

Scott Lobdell: Let's mess up this place, by destroying everything. I'm sure people will love it.

[JAK]

I love the whole Post-Crisis '89-'93 era the most. If I could have a comic book revival like they do old tv show revivals, I'd bring back Stern, Jurgens, Ordway, Weezie, etc. and just have them try to pick up where they left off with their version of Lois and Clark and the supporting cast of Metropolis, but with an added kid Jon (perhaps something like ~11 years after the wedding issue). Part of what made it work, though, was Mike Carlin, but sadly apparently he's a notorious sexual harasser, so he definitely can't be a part of my silly dream reunion. I just really miss the narrative magic of that time in Superman history.

True, but wasn't Stern in that job before Carlin? He'd be fine, I would think.

I think I was stating more of an objective truth than a subjective one. You and I may appreciate that long run of comics because we already read them back in the day. When I come at them again, as daunting as it is, I know what I'm looking for. Someone picking up these comics for the first time is going to have a big challenge on their hands. Even if that challenge is rewarding, it's not something that can be done in a day. So there's a big hurdle of time, patience and memory before one can come away with an understanding of that epoch.

The further we get away from this period in comics, how many new readers are actually going to make the commitment? If all a person has to do is read one trade paperback, they are more likely to do that than if they have to read twenty trade paperbacks. Therefore, most new fans will probably only have a Coles Notes understanding of that run.

I don't know; I do think it's kinda subjective. Granted, it's been much longer now, but I started buying back-issues in 1992 (a year after I became a regular reader) and digging into the back issues from 1986-on then was fun (if a challenge finding them, at times).

And maybe, if all the stories are relevant, DC will finally get off their arse and make sure people have easy access to the back-issues. I'm dreaming, I know, but still - it'd be one heck of a selling point for DC Universe Infinite, even though the idea strikes me as a comics store killer.

[Kuwagaton]

Jurgens coming back to Rebirth was fortunate. How often does a writer revisit their old work in the main continuity?

Well, I suppose it's kind of impossible to say whether the triangle era is great because it built off of what Byrne did, or if it was great in spite of him. Bit of both, probably. The era was still very much a "Clark first" narrative and the character was still far less powerful than he had been and a lot of classic concepts were still missing or drastically changed. But it didn't go out of its way to insult/ignore the Kryptonian side of Superman like Byrne did, there was a fair chunk of cosmic stuff in the books, Cadmus and some other Kirby creations got a *ton* of attention, and overall I still think it's one of the best era's the franchise has *ever* had, even if its take on Superman is a bit off the mark (by my standards).

The real glory of the triangle era (other than just how tight knit and well written it all was) is the supporting cast and setting. Metropolis was never such a robust, fleshed out city as it was in the 90's, nor has the supporting cast ever been so well handled and expansive. We knew the names of Clark's favorite music albums, we knew the name of the street vendor Clark bought pretzels from, we knew the name of Perry White's *secretary* and she even had some minor subplots! This was the era when Lex Luthor really established himself as a antagonistic part of the supporting cast instead of *just* a villain, and we got some other pretty amazing bad guys out of it like Conduit and Dabney Donovan and the second Bloodsport. Some really great stories too, Exile and the D.N.Alien/Cadmus/LexCorp war, the Death of Clark Kent.....

I definitely recommend it, if you can find it. To my knowledge most of those stories were never collected.

Well said. And I love Dabney so much. Just having Metropolis be a place where you can run across a weirdo like him for just one thing about it. I don't know if you'd say hammering home the Kirby characters was because of or in spite of Byrne kicking it off, but I still give him credit for the opportunities his direction created.

Scott Lobdell: Let's mess up this place, by destroying everything. I'm sure people will love it.

Ha, I was harsh on it but he really did try to channel Morrison in his way.

[manwhohaseverything]

Didn't dcau partly adapt things from that era or drew inspiration from it? I mean, it had Draaga, the whole gladiator storyline, son of darkseid thing.. Etc. I don't believe it's that daunting. But, i do believe there might be confusion where to get started and what comes after what for some people. I mean, new people might not even know that triangle numbering was a thing.but, that's not much of an issue because they have collections of many things.

[Laufeyson]

Ha, I was harsh on it but he really did try to channel Morrison in his way.

That's Lobdell for you. Out of everything that he can copy, Lobdell copies Morrison's anarchism and punk personality. But, to be fair that approach of his work in X-Men and Red Hood.

[Jim Kelly]

Didn't dcau partly adapt things from that era or drew inspiration from it? I mean, it had Draaga, the whole gladiator storyline, son of darkseid thing.. Etc. I don't believe it's that daunting. But, i do believe there might be confusion where to get started and what comes after what for some people. I mean, new people might not even know that triangle numbering was a thing.but, that's not much of an issue because they have collections of many things.

It's still a lot to read--but maybe I'm just a slow reader and everyone is smarter than me.

I think people are more likely to see the adaptations rather than read the thing itself. Which, as I say, means they'll get a Coles Notes version. (Is Coles Notes still a thing or am I using an moribund expression?)

At the time, I would say that Superman was running a close second to Batman--those comics were popular, as we were invested in following these extensive stories and that huge cast of characters. It seems to me this was one of the periods when the World's Finest were on equal footing with each other.

But, even though Batman had many involved story lines that you would have to spend a long time reading them, just like Superman, he also had much briefer stories that can easily be collected in single trade paperbacks--"Dark Knight Returns," "Killing Joke," "Year One," "Long Halloween" etc. It's hard to come up with Superman stories that can easily be packaged in a lone trade paperback from the same period.

"Death of Superman" maybe--but there's a lot of continuity that's running through that story that's going to go over the heads of readers. The Batman stories I mentioned aren't heavy with continuity--so you can easily read them and you're not missing anything. I think that's been to the benefit of Batman and to the detriment of Superman in gaining new readers now. Readers have those Batman books to start with and then if they like them, they can get into the deeper cuts like "Knightfall" after.

What would be the best entrée for readers to get into Superman from this period? "Man of Steel?" "Superman For All Seasons?"

[Laufeyson]

It's still a lot to read--but maybe I'm just a slow reader and everyone is smarter than me.

I think people are more likely to see the adaptations rather than read the thing itself. Which, as I say, means they'll get a Coles Notes version. (Is Coles Notes still a thing or am I using an moribund expression?)

At the time, I would say that Superman was running a close second to Batman--those comics were popular, as we were invested in following these extensive stories and that huge cast of characters. It seems to me this was one of the periods when the World's Finest were on equal footing with each other.

But, even though Batman had many involved story lines that you would have to spend a long time reading them, just like Superman, he also had much briefer stories that can easily be collected in single trade paperbacks--"Dark Knight Returns," "Killing Joke," "Year One," "Long Halloween" etc. It's hard to come up with Superman stories that can easily be packaged in a lone trade paperback from the same period.

"Death of Superman" maybe--but there's a lot of continuity that's running through that story that's going to go over the heads of readers. The Batman stories I mentioned aren't heavy with continuity--so you can easily read them and you're not missing anything. I think that's been to the benefit of Batman and to the detriment of Superman in gaining new readers now. Readers have those Batman books to start with and then if they like them, they can get into the deeper cuts like "Knightfall" after.

What would be the best entrée for readers to get into Superman from this period? "Man of Steel?" "Superman For All Seasons?"

All-Star Superman is easy because what you have to know is basically his origin and even then Morrisson sum it up in one page for you who live under the rock. Superman For All Seasons and Confidential are also great because of how similar the Superman of those maxi series with TAS. But, to me the easiest Superman story that will hook up a casual readers would be the Earth One: Superman by JMS. It's not the most uplifting story out there, but it's story that can be read without knowing because it's from another Earth. Aside from those books I believe Superman Smashes Klan and Man and Superman are also a very good entry for a new reader.

[Jim Kelly]

Of course ALL-STAR SUPERMAN is after the period I'm talking about, but yes this is the kind of material they should be doing alongside the regular ongoing continuity. They need to do both--put out books that are accessible to the great unwashed and put out books for the faithful followers.

[Laufeyson]

Of course ALL-STAR SUPERMAN is after the period I'm talking about, but yes this is the kind of material they should be doing alongside the regular ongoing continuity. They need to do both--put out books that are accessible to the great unwashed and put out books for the faithful followers.

Oh sorry, man. I don't read your post entirely. My mistake there.

[JAK]

It's still a lot to read--but maybe I'm just a slow reader and everyone is smarter than me.

I think people are more likely to see the adaptations rather than read the thing itself. Which, as I say, means they'll get a Coles Notes version. (Is Coles Notes still a thing or am I using an moribund expression?)

I had a thought on this, actually - perhaps "free comic book day" could be used as a way to catch readers up on things that are relevant to the stories coming up ahead (and a list of the past comics it covers, for those who want to go back to them - or maybe an ad for a trade paperback for it). That way, free comic book day becomes the yearly jumping-on point for the Super-books.