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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's still a lot to read--but maybe I'm just a slow reader and everyone is smarter than me.

    I think people are more likely to see the adaptations rather than read the thing itself. Which, as I say, means they'll get a Coles Notes version. (Is Coles Notes still a thing or am I using an moribund expression?)

    At the time, I would say that Superman was running a close second to Batman--those comics were popular, as we were invested in following these extensive stories and that huge cast of characters. It seems to me this was one of the periods when the World's Finest were on equal footing with each other.

    But, even though Batman had many involved story lines that you would have to spend a long time reading them, just like Superman, he also had much briefer stories that can easily be collected in single trade paperbacks--"Dark Knight Returns," "Killing Joke," "Year One," "Long Halloween" etc. It's hard to come up with Superman stories that can easily be packaged in a lone trade paperback from the same period.

    "Death of Superman" maybe--but there's a lot of continuity that's running through that story that's going to go over the heads of readers. The Batman stories I mentioned aren't heavy with continuity--so you can easily read them and you're not missing anything. I think that's been to the benefit of Batman and to the detriment of Superman in gaining new readers now. Readers have those Batman books to start with and then if they like them, they can get into the deeper cuts like "Knightfall" after.

    What would be the best entrée for readers to get into Superman from this period? "Man of Steel?" "Superman For All Seasons?"
    Wolfman’s Man and Superman to me fits the bill. He wrote it in the 90s but it only got released recently. I’m harsher on the Byrne take than most but I actually liked Wolfman’s version of that origin and characterization.

  2. #47
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    I had a thought on this, actually - perhaps "free comic book day" could be used as a way to catch readers up on things that are relevant to the stories coming up ahead (and a list of the past comics it covers, for those who want to go back to them - or maybe an ad for a trade paperback for it). That way, free comic book day becomes the yearly jumping-on point for the Super-books.
    Readers really shouldn't have to read decades of material to be able to enjoy a DC superhero story.

    Something like SUPERMAN should always be relatively accessible to new readers.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 09-22-2020 at 02:40 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Wolfman’s Man and Superman to me fits the bill. He wrote it in the 90s but it only got released recently. I’m harsher on the Byrne take than most but I actually liked Wolfman’s version of that origin and characterization.
    Wolfeman is great. Period. And a lot of people forget, he was right there with Byrne as co-architect of Post Crisis Superman.

  4. #49
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Readers really shouldn't have to read decades of material to be able to enjoy a DC superhero story.

    Something like SUPERMAN should always be relatively accessible to new readers.
    There's a difference between being able to enjoy a story and catching every little nuance about everything that happens for extra enjoyment. A decent writer can write an enjoyable story that new readers can dig into but also gives the long-time readers something extra - and I think we need to stop acting like this is an either/or thing. It doesn't have to be.

    Right now, just about all of the Post-Crisis history has been reinstated, and that's not hindering new stories now. It's only a problem if the writers can't handle it.
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  5. #50
    Mighty Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I would say, John Byrne followed by Grant Morrison. Byrne was asked to redefine the hero and he was given free reign to ignore the previous 50 years of continuity.

    Maybe more than Byrne, Morrison. They renumbered Action Comics, the longest running comic title, just for him. I also think he was also at the top of most peoples wishlists for the character. All Star Superman seemed to hint that Morrison had endless ideas in store.

    They certainly pushed Bendis as a Kirby sized talent when he came to DC.

  6. #51
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Byrne. If they would've given Morrison complete control over the creative direction instead of making him share it with George Perez (nothing against Perez at all, this was just a terrible set up) I'd say Morrison. Byrne got to set the entire tone and create new ground rules by himself.

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Readers really shouldn't have to read decades of material to be able to enjoy a DC superhero story.

    Something like SUPERMAN should always be relatively accessible to new readers.
    For me, a fleshed out world really helps. Set up a set of rules on how the world and characters work, personality... Etc, you know. Sometimes i just like to dive in. Moreover, we have the internet now. The postcrisis metropolis is very well defined and built. I just wish, we saw more of that and let go of the mundane realistic aspect of it. Just go a bit scifi and fantastical. I mean, it's not like postcrisis world didn't have human cloning tech and stuff like that. Maggie sawyer, bibbo bibbowski... Etc are great additions.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magha_regulus View Post
    Byrne. If they would've given Morrison complete control over the creative direction instead of making him share it with George Perez (nothing against Perez at all, this was just a terrible set up) I'd say Morrison. Byrne got to set the entire tone and create new ground rules by himself.
    if at all possible, I don't think they should have relaunched a second Superman ongoing and just left it at Action until either Morrison was done, or better yet put Morrison in charge of that too. Or a co-writer on the same wavelength who he could coordinate with.

    Byrne's era was more cohesive and received better editorial care overall despite having much weaker ideas in place.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    if at all possible, I don't think they should have relaunched a second Superman ongoing and just left it at Action until either Morrison was done, or better yet put Morrison in charge of that too. Or a co-writer on the same wavelength who he could coordinate with.

    Byrne's era was more cohesive and received better editorial care overall despite having much weaker ideas in place.
    Yep. Should’ve launched Action and Detective Comics first to give the new origins for Batman and Superman, and then launched the Batman and Superman ongoings. But the New 52 was a rushed mess so alas, we got what we got.

  10. #55
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magha_regulus View Post
    Byrne. If they would've given Morrison complete control over the creative direction instead of making him share it with George Perez (nothing against Perez at all, this was just a terrible set up) I'd say Morrison. Byrne got to set the entire tone and create new ground rules by himself.
    Between sharing with Wolfman and having stuff like Superboy taken off the table, I think he had to roll with more compromise than Morrison.

    I really don't know why they brought George Perez on to share, only to give him that much influence. If he can't really influence Morrison's story, at least let him do his own thing like tony daniel did on detective
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  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Between sharing with Wolfman and having stuff like Superboy taken off the table, I think he had to roll with more compromise than Morrison.

    I really don't know why they brought George Perez on to share, only to give him that much influence. If he can't really influence Morrison's story, at least let him do his own thing like tony daniel did on detective
    Superman editorial was a mess and has been for years. Berenza would pull stunts like that all the time, starting with the Superman 2000 pitch where he failed to let higher ups know he had solicited the quadrate. Sucks that they screwed over Perez like that, I would love to know what his initial plans were, does anyone remember any interviews before his run began where he talked about what he wanted to do?

  12. #57
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Superman editorial was a mess and has been for years. Berenza would pull stunts like that all the time, starting with the Superman 2000 pitch where he failed to let higher ups know he had solicited the quadrate. Sucks that they screwed over Perez like that, I would love to know what his initial plans were, does anyone remember any interviews before his run began where he talked about what he wanted to do?
    I'm kind of shocked that Berganza lasted as long as he did given how he started his editorial reign with such a gigantic screw up which ended up alienating and angering so many people. How did he survive this? Did he lie to Carlin and Levitz about the circumstances of the pitch?

  13. #58
    Incredible Member Laufeyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I'm kind of shocked that Berganza lasted as long as he did given how he started his editorial reign with such a gigantic screw up which ended up alienating and angering so many people. How did he survive this? Did he lie to Carlin and Levitz about the circumstances of the pitch?
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  14. #59
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I'm kind of shocked that Berganza lasted as long as he did given how he started his editorial reign with such a gigantic screw up which ended up alienating and angering so many people. How did he survive this? Did he lie to Carlin and Levitz about the circumstances of the pitch?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    The power of connection my man, what else.
    I think honestly what saved Berganza back then was that the Loeb/Kelly era was a definite shot in the arm and for a time sales ticked up and the books were in a decent shape for a few years there. He got results. The books never became as big as they were during the glory days of the original triangle era,but for about three or four years they were consistent sellers and only began to flag right around Birthright and Infinite Crisis.

    How he got his second tenure on Superman and the results of that is the one that is ripe for speculation and rumor,but honestly he's gone from the company,the industry and mercifully gone from Superman.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 09-26-2020 at 09:38 AM.
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  15. #60
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I think honestly what saved Berganza back then was that the Loeb/Kelly era was a definite shot in the arm and for a time sales ticked up and the books were in a decent shape for a few years there. He got results. The books never became as big as they were during the glory days of the original triangle era,but for about three or four years they were consistent sellers and only began to flag right around Birthright and Infinite Crisis.

    How he got his second tenure on Superman and the results of that is the one that is ripe for speculation and rumor,but honestly he's gone from the company,the industry and mercifully gone from Superman.
    But how did he keep his job long enough to hire Loeb and Kelly? If Levitz and Carlin were pissed at Morrison, Waid & Millar for their "unsolicited" pitch, why didn't Berganza get any blame?

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