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  1. #61
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    But how did he keep his job long enough to hire Loeb and Kelly? If Levitz and Carlin were pissed at Morrison, Waid & Millar for their "unsolicited" pitch, why didn't Berganza get any blame?
    That I don't know.My suspicion is that Levitz may have initially told Berganza to revamp the creative teams and then either got cold feet or changed his position to placate Mike Carlin once he came back from his leave of absence and hit the roof when he discovered his guys on the books were removed. I always thought there was always more to that whole clusterfuck that we will never know. My guess is Levitz gave Berganza another shot to assemboe a new team for the books and raise their sales with the understanding if he didnt deliver,he was gone. It's very possible the only reason Berganza kept the job was that no one else wanted to take on the task of either having to mend fences with the creators that were fired or have to assemble a team out of thin air to take up the books and keep them on schedule.

    Truth is we'll never know the full story or whether the blame lies with Morrison and Waid,Berganza,Levitz or Carlin or if all share the blame in some ways. It's been 21 years since that mess occurred and the details are likely fading from memory.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    How he got his second tenure on Superman and the results of that is the one that is ripe for speculation and rumor,but honestly he's gone from the company,the industry and mercifully gone from Superman.
    Because the Superman books were largely stable under Berganza. During the Idelson era that followed, it was a constant revolving door of creators from Busiek/Johns to Robinson/Rucka/Trautmann then JMS/Cornell/Roberson then onto New 52 where the Superman book was another constant revolving with Perez then Jurgens then I think Lobdell. Berganza basically oversaw the last era of the Superbooks where it wasn't a giant creative mess of creators coming in and out.

  3. #63
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    Because the Superman books were largely stable under Berganza. During the Idelson era that followed, it was a constant revolving door of creators from Busiek/Johns to Robinson/Rucka/Trautmann then JMS/Cornell/Roberson then onto New 52 where the Superman book was another constant revolving with Perez then Jurgens then I think Lobdell. Berganza basically oversaw the last era of the Superbooks where it wasn't a giant creative mess of creators coming in and out.
    Definitely, but his second tenure was no better than Idelson's run. It was still a mess of creators coming and going and different creative directions nearly every 3-6 months. Its unclear whether that was Berganza's fault or people above him,but his second run was pretty lousy. Add to that the other more seedy things that apparently were going on behind the scenes regarding Berganza's behavior and it was a recipe for chaos.

    His first tenure though,particularly late 1999-2003 ish, were indeed the last time the Superman books had a stable creative vision behind them. Although it hasn't been too bad since REBIRTH . We got about 4 years worth of Tomasi and Jurgens on the books in their two year run and then the last two years with Bendis. The stuff they did may not be to everyone's taste but at the very least the last 4 or so years there has been some level of stability. I hope whomever takes over follows suit. We'll probably never get a decade long run with the same group of creators working in tandem again,but I'll settle for two or three year at a time runs where there is a clear vision and direction instead of what ruled the day for 13 or so years there.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 09-26-2020 at 12:46 PM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I'd say Byrne and Morrison, but both were derailed by choices made on the editorial level that prevented both from being as successful as they could have been.

    Had Byrne been able do more of a soft reboot as he was initially intending, it wouldn't have caused the headaches that unmoored Supergirl & Superboy, and torpedoed Legion of the Super-Heroes for decades.

    Had Morrison been allowed to make his neo-Siegel & Shuster Superman reboot a more self-contained book that could be a complete restart existing on a new Earth that didn't replace the Pre-Flashpoint Superman incarnation, and been given the lead time to give Rags time to do all the art, the relaunch would have certainly been more successful.
    Definitely all true, and in fact I don't think the Legion has ever fully recovered. Of all DC's big guns, Superman's sort of the one whose various origins come across as most - incompatible with each other, at times. Well, maybe Wonder Woman. But the Superboy thing was a huge deal.

    On Morrison's side, I don't think he was quite given a fair shake by either Superman fans or DC themselves. Having to coexist with Johns' JL, Perez's mediocre run on the Superman title, and deal with a 5 year timescale, did not help Morrison's Action run out - and it's still one of my favorite Superman runs of all time! A more self-contained version of that story might have taken off better.
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  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Do we know who is overseeing the Superbooks now? The Bloodbath has seen so many people let go that itís hard for me to keep track of who is staying and who is going. This next era for Superman will be interesting: Post-Berganza and post-Didio. Hopefully it will be a good one but that all depends on who gets the books after Bendis.

  6. #66
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Definitely all true, and in fact I don't think the Legion has ever fully recovered. Of all DC's big guns, Superman's sort of the one whose various origins come across as most - incompatible with each other, at times. Well, maybe Wonder Woman. But the Superboy thing was a huge deal.

    On Morrison's side, I don't think he was quite given a fair shake by either Superman fans or DC themselves. Having to coexist with Johns' JL, Perez's mediocre run on the Superman title, and deal with a 5 year timescale, did not help Morrison's Action run out - and it's still one of my favorite Superman runs of all time! A more self-contained version of that story might have taken off better.
    Yeah the Legion fell several magnitudes.

    Morrison's DC shake though... if nothing else they loved that guy. An exceptional run in that they wouldn't even bother him with the editorial shenanigans of the time. Pretty sure that's the only relaunch that didn't cross over with the other writer in the first year or at all.
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  7. #67
    Fantastic Member Hol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tib2d2 View Post
    Who was given the keys to the car with the highest stakes? Its not really about how they did with the opportunity, but who was given the biggest opportunity?

    Hey John Byrne, reinvent Superman after Crisis!

    Hey Dan Jurgens, kill Superman!

    Hey Grant Morrison, we're rebooting it all, reboot Superman!

    Who else?
    Jurgens! Everyone in the world knew about the Death and Return of Superman. It was on the news...non comic fans were talking about it. It drove so many non comic fans into stores. I would say more than any other Superman story.

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