View Poll Results: metahumans, normal or mix of both?

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  • Metahumans

    6 13.95%
  • Normal with tech

    20 46.51%
  • Mix of both

    17 39.53%
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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I think no, and I think I have a good reason why beyond just "They're classic" and "Flash has two "tiers" of villains, classic, and kind of anti-Flash meta".

    Barry Allen is a CSI. Each of the Vintage Rogues basically has a special gun or special wand or special item that allows them to carry off their crime gimmick, which usually involves robbery of some kind. Upon occasion you might have one be a very strange murder weapon of course, as in a film it's likely that the Rogues' no kill "general rule" might not be applied strongly. And Boomerang is a scumbag. And Cold does settle personal grudges.

    To the degree where like ... Barry deals with specialized crime scenes and unimaginable murder weapons or arson tools or robbery plots, Barry might even have more experience in the field than Batman. Obviously Batman handles a lot of similar stuff and they overlap heavily, but only started handling Silver Age ultra-tech at the same time Barry came around, so prior to that it was mostly bullets and fingerprints and the occasional monstro-giant hair follicles and frankly mostly death traps and puzzles. All that is just to say that Barry has his area of expertise ... and the Rogues having sci-fi weapons and costumes they commit crimes with actually builds on that core element of The Flash in a way that's more organic and slick than just the fact that he also has an obvious and tropey horde of Counter-Speed Dark Anti-Flashes out there.

    The Rogues and their modus operandi are the very thing, their crime scenes specifically, that force The Fastest Man Alive to kind of slow down and examine things and figure it all out. Then of course he's able to race off to wherever he has deduced they're hiding out and thwart them before their next big robbery.
    I like this angle. I'd love to see Barry analyzing a bank lobby or diamond vault that looks totally scarred by strange processes caused by their weapons, and analyzing the trail they may have left behind.

  2. #17
    Boisterously Confused
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    I'm old school enough that I automatically interpret the term "Flash's Rogues" to mean his entire gallery, rather than the organization that has appeared in the last few years. After thinking a second - naturally, after already having voted - I'd say non-meta

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think it's also a good way of separating Barry's Rogues from Wally's.

    Barry's Rogues are mostly tech-based gimmick villains while Wally's Rogues were mostly Methumans with powers. Did Plunder even have powers? I forget.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's also a good way of separating Barry's Rogues from Wally's.

    Barry's Rogues are mostly tech-based gimmick villains while Wally's Rogues were mostly Methumans with powers. Did Plunder even have powers? I forget.
    That's a good point.

    I also wonder if Wally's rogues will ever be good enough to kind of band together in a similar fashion to Barry's and create a consistent group dynamic. It would be a big ask, but not impossible. Blacksmith, Girder, Magenta, Murmur, Plunder, Double Down. I know they had time to shine in Rogue War but they were never developed as a cohesive family. I wonder if a writer could come along and revamp their origins with stronger themes. Curious what other Flash fans think about that one.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    That's a good point.

    I also wonder if Wally's rogues will ever be good enough to kind of band together in a similar fashion to Barry's and create a consistent group dynamic. It would be a big ask, but not impossible. Blacksmith, Girder, Magenta, Murmur, Plunder, Double Down. I know they had time to shine in Rogue War but they were never developed as a cohesive family. I wonder if a writer could come along and revamp their origins with stronger themes. Curious what other Flash fans think about that one.
    I'm down for it (I remember Girder flirting with Magenta a lot before she came to her sense and tore him apart) but it would probably require writers to actually focus on Wally's villains instead of just occasionally featuring them as Barry villains.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Depends on the character. Captain Cold should certainly be normal - if he's a metahuman he becomes a Mister Freeze clone. Mirror Master should probably be a meta though.
    Mister Freeze? Mr Freeze usually has an ice gun and people literally compare the two because of it. Anyway I thought of it like in the new52 where they merged with their tech to become metas.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's also a good way of separating Barry's Rogues from Wally's.

    Barry's Rogues are mostly tech-based gimmick villains while Wally's Rogues were mostly Methumans with powers. Did Plunder even have powers? I forget.
    But didn't Wally begin to start using Barry villains later one?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think The Rogues are more unique and true to form as blue-collar crooks with gadget gimmicks who band together against The Flash rather than a bunch of superpowered Supervillains.
    Well they can still be blue collar crooks, just that Cold got desperate to beat the Flash and merged his weapon with himself. And like I said they just look more interesting and makes sense why the Flash would struggle against them. Like most Batman villains are regular people because he has no power while most superman villains have powers. Plus it would nicely separate Captain Cold from Mr Freeze or Heatwave from Firefly since people would draw comparisons. I know Golden Glider definitely should be a metahuman with her astral powers since pre 52 she just use skates to commit crimes and in the show she uses a Gold Gun that is basically the same as the Cold Gun (and also makes the Golden Glider make no sense)

  9. #24
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Well they can still be blue collar crooks, just that Cold got desperate to beat the Flash and merged his weapon with himself. And like I said they just look more interesting and makes sense why the Flash would struggle against them. Like most Batman villains are regular people because he has no power while most superman villains have powers. Plus it would nicely separate Captain Cold from Mr Freeze or Heatwave from Firefly since people would draw comparisons. I know Golden Glider definitely should be a metahuman with her astral powers since pre 52 she just use skates to commit crimes and in the show she uses a Gold Gun that is basically the same as the Cold Gun (and also makes the Golden Glider make no sense)
    And it doesn't make sense for him to struggle against them otherwise?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    And it doesn't make sense for him to struggle against them otherwise?
    Because they’re normal people. Maybe back in the silver age before the speed force became a thing it made sense for flash rogues to be regular people with technology but given how OP flash is now it makes no sense why normal people struggle against him. Becoming metahumans expanded their powers and made them stronger. Plus like I said it just makes fights more interesting than just shooting beams at flash

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    He must be, as he sure ain't a normal human. He can't survive without a containment suit due to alterations to his body chemistry.
    That doesn’t make him a meta. Freeze has no powers himself. When Cold became a meta he could create blizzards, freeze an entire river, freeze things by touching them and so on. Mr Freeze needs an ice gun just like how Captain Cold needs his cold gun

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I'd be tempted to say 'mix of both,' because some of them, like Weather Wizard, don't make as much sense to be gadget based. (I can suspend disbelief for a cold gun, but a wand that creates storms? That's not big enough to hold a D battery? No.)

    That said, some are so, so much less versatile as metas. Mirror Master does all sorts of crazy stuff in the comics. On the TV show, he's a meta who jumps in and out of mirrors. So, so dull, by comparison. I feel like he's so much less of a cool character, no matter how absurd some of the comic book gadgets can get.

    Plus I also like the idea of the Flash, and his Rogues, being *smart.* Not just mutants, but actual scientists and techies (no matter how far awry they've gone). No need for freak accidents or 'born this way' origin stories, they are, for the most part, self-made folk.

    And there's always the exceptions, like Gorilla Grodd, who is very much not 'a dude with a gimmick' for that meta flavor, so it's not like having the Rogues stick to tech means that Flash isn't going to face people with actual powers (like all those other speedsters...) from time to time.
    Well in the new 52 they still had their weapons before Dr Elias gave them the genome recoder so Snart still built (or stole) his cold gun. Also I feel only Cold created his weapon. Plus like I said some just end up looking too similar to Batman villains. Mr Freeze and Captain Cold? FireFly and Heatwave?

    CW really did Top and Mirror Master dirty. In Rogue Revolution Mirror Master is actually stuck in the mirror dimension and can pul people in it, manipulate the world, impale them with shards of mirror glass and create clones of himself. Basically they all got pretty big upgrades

    Snart could harden his fists, create pillars, blizzards and even freeze a river. Heatwave could fire skeletons and even engulf himself in fire turning himself into a fire monster, golden glider became astral basically being a ghost and weather wizard well he’s pretty much the same but it makes more sense than using a wand

  13. #28
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Because they’re normal people. Maybe back in the silver age before the speed force became a thing it made sense for flash rogues to be regular people with technology but given how OP flash is now it makes no sense why normal people struggle against him. Becoming metahumans expanded their powers and made them stronger. Plus like I said it just makes fights more interesting than just shooting beams at flash
    Disagree - the tech works just as well as "powers", makes them distinct from other power foes, and gives the rogues gallery more variety because you know they're going to use Reverse-Flash and Gorilla Grodd, so making them have powers just makes it that less diverse and interesting.

  14. #29
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I like the idea of it being a mix of both. Like, they have powers but it's useless without their weapons. Take their weapons away and they would be no less trouble than the average crook. Keep them as a threat but still have them be underdogs.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Disagree - the tech works just as well as "powers", makes them distinct from other power foes, and gives the rogues gallery more variety because you know they're going to use Reverse-Flash and Gorilla Grodd, so making them have powers just makes it that less diverse and interesting.
    Not really. Besides Weather Wizard everyone else was upgraded from their meta powers. For starters they all developed immunity to their abilities

    Captain Cold ice was more potent, could build constructions and hit harder with frozen hands

    Heatwave could create fire skeletons and engulf himself in flames

    Golden Glider could phase through object and fly

    Mirror Master could use any reflection and control the mirror dimension

    Like I said only Weather Wizard really wasn't effect all that much besides being able to shoot lighting bolts and hail from his hands but giving him super powers still makes more sense than a wand

    Plus it made an interesting aspect that they had to adapt to their powers. Mardon's mood was tied with the weather and began to go mad, Snart froze everything, Rory would burn when he was angry, Lisa didn't have a physical body and Scudder was trapped in the mirror dimension. They could always start off being normal people then gain meta powers

    EDIT: Plus the only way to disarm them is to knock them unconscious rather than just taking their stuff
    Last edited by Dboi2001; 09-19-2020 at 01:36 PM.

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