View Poll Results: metahumans, normal or mix of both?

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  • Metahumans

    6 13.95%
  • Normal with tech

    20 46.51%
  • Mix of both

    17 39.53%
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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    The Rogues individually make less villains interesting for flash imo because they don't present a challenge for him near his peak. A simple experiment give Flash's Rogues to Batman? How do they do? Then give them to Superman? How do they do? The rogues get roffle stomp by Superman? Why because Superman is shown at his peak with his powers most times. It is fine that Flash a couple of villains that not on his tier but Flash versus Zod, Parasite, Metallo, Mxyzptlk, Brainac are compelling, Flash versus Mr Freeze, Firefly, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow,etc isn't really interesting. You have to remove tradition from your mind and use comparable villains for other places to make this a fair convo.

    It isn't even just about tech ,It is about someone who can take a super speed punch to face and get back up. You can create tech that realistic stop flash but that tech ain't stopping the inevitable mach speed punch to the face. For me I think it is easier to keep the traditional rogue low tech look and say "he has enhanced human abilities that is why he can take a punches from flash, Metahumans are little more durable than normal humans" than the alternative. The Rogues as individuals don't have sufficient tech to challenge a flash being written at his best. If you give Rogues sufficient tech they look like Iron Man villains which would create the same type of complaints from some fans as metapowers.

    The rogues would be probably better off in the movie world as metahumans .The Rogues individually are batman level villains, Only the Rogues as a group are a compelling fight for Flash.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    The Rogues individually make less villains interesting for flash imo because they don't present a challenge for him near his peak. A simple experiment give Flash's Rogues to Batman? How do they do? Then give them to Superman? How do they do? The rogues get roffle stomp by Superman? Why because Superman is shown at his peak with his powers most times. It is fine that Flash a couple of villains that not on his tier but Flash versus Zod, Parasite, Metallo, Mxyzptlk, Brainac are compelling, Flash versus Mr Freeze, Firefly, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow,etc isn't really interesting. You have to remove tradition from your mind and use comparable villains for other places to make this a fair convo.
    Oh, individually I don't think any of them should be able to consistently trounce the Flash. But they're almost never going up against him individually.

    As for your scenarios, I think they're fun to explore. I think the difference between Flash and Superman is the Flash's mostly human vulnerability; he can be shot, electrocuted, burned, frozen, or tripped, if he's forced to make a tough decision or walked into a trap. Superman should not be bothered by those things. A surprise attack on Superman from the Rogues will almost never hurt him. Which is also why Flash vs someone like Zod is interesting but clearly high-risk.

    I also think we're analyzing these fights a little bit simplistically; the Rogues aren't going to stand in an empty square and fight Flash when the bell rings, they're going to be breaking in and out of places and trying to cover their escape. Once in a while they brawl in an open city block, but there are clearly limits on how fast the Flash can go in that environment. The CW may struggle to make that kind of fight look believable, but I rarely doubt it as depicted in the comics.

    And really, I don't see a huge leap in ability between Captain Cold sticking out his arms and shooting a freeze blast out of his hands, and sticking out one arm and firing his gun. Same with Weather Wizard and his wand, same with Heat Wave and his gun. The same criticisms would apply; they're much slower than the Flash. And they'd overcome that barrier the same way; working together and being smart.

  3. #48
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    If you put Batman's villains in Central City, they'd probably come off as more disorganized and crazy versions of The Rogues.

  4. #49
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    The Rogues are crafty. They're not getting in a face to face fight if they can help it. They're going to use their devices to fake out the Flash. As an example, regular Mirror Master--no meta powers--will do it all with mirrors--so Flash isn't punching Mirror Master, he's punching a mirror image of Mirror Master.

    Since Mirror Master is supposed to be the villain(ess) in the movie--that would be a way to do it. But given all the reality bending, I imagine this is going to be a Mirror Maven that manipulates time and space.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I disagree that it's not believable. Given what the weapons can do, it's totally within the realm of logic that the Rogues can pull off a robbery before Flash can react,or create an illusion that sees him run into a mirror, or slow him down with severe weather, or create fire/ice obstacles and bombing traps that distract him by endangering civilians, etc. I mean, Flash fans have believed it since 1957, and non-metahumans outsmarting/frustrating super beings has been happening as long as the genre exists.
    That’s because the Silver Age flash wasn’t nearly as OP as he is now. Plus as I mentioned what can be believable for comic books don’t always translate to live action. Like people are poking fun at The Suicide Squad movie for embracing the stupidity of comics. Like the weather wizard wand is just plain stupid. Like is said i’m fine with some being metas and some being normal. Cold and Heatwave can definitely be normal. Weather Wizard and Mirror Master are just more plausible as metas. Golden Glider as a meta is way better than a girl who is good at ice skating or a copy of Captain Cold.

    EDIT: Sidenote another reason i like the rogues being meta humans is because why nobody ever tries to copy their tech? Like you’re telling me the army wouldn’t seize their shit and replicate them? Also why not just destroy or deconstruct their stuff so when they inevitably escape they can’t just take them? Plus it’s just not believable that common crooks like Snart can invent a Cold Gun. Robot Chicken even had a joke where Mr Freeze was annoyed that he spent years of research designing him gun but other random assholes can make their own freeze guns too
    Last edited by Dboi2001; 09-21-2020 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    That’s because the Silver Age flash wasn’t nearly as OP as he is now. Plus as I mentioned what can be believable for comic books don’t always translate to live action. Like people are poking fun at The Suicide Squad movie for embracing the stupidity of comics. Like the weather wizard wand is just plain stupid. Like is said i’m fine with some being metas and some being normal. Cold and Heatwave can definitely be normal. Weather Wizard and Mirror Master are just more plausible as metas. Golden Glider as a meta is way better than a girl who is good at ice skating or a copy of Captain Cold.

    EDIT: Sidenote another reason i like the rogues being meta humans is because why nobody ever tries to copy their tech? Like you’re telling me the army wouldn’t seize their shit and replicate them? Also why not just destroy or deconstruct their stuff so when they inevitably escape they can’t just take them? Plus it’s just not believable that common crooks like Snart can invent a Cold Gun. Robot Chicken even had a joke where Mr Freeze was annoyed that he spent years of research designing him gun but other random assholes can make their own freeze guns too
    I don't really think it's a question of being overpowered. Flash has shown incredible feats for at least 30 years now, but the Rogues are written as intelligent crooks who work together and avoid a head-on fight. Again, I don't see how Cold extending one hand while holding gun is weak and beyond believable, but Cold shooting ice out of both extended hands makes it palatable for you.

    As for "the stupidity of comics", I don't see why a group of common criminals getting incredible powers is any less stupid than tweaking existing technology. Some of their technology was stolen from advanced technological institutions to begin with. Weather modification already exists, flamethrowers exist, etc.

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    I liked Johns’ concept for the Cap Cold/Flash dynamic. Cold is the opposite of speed/friction because (in a simplified explanation) when atoms or molecules are energized it creates movement while atoms with less movement create cold. Just make it so Snart’s gun and tech creates an “aura” of cold that slows the Flash down as he gets closer. That way he doesn’t have to move as fast as Barry because he’s surrounded on all sides with protection.
    I really liked that also.

    This is much cooler to me than a dude blasting ice out of his hands.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The Rogues are crafty. They're not getting in a face to face fight if they can help it. They're going to use their devices to fake out the Flash. As an example, regular Mirror Master--no meta powers--will do it all with mirrors--so Flash isn't punching Mirror Master, he's punching a mirror image of Mirror Master.

    Since Mirror Master is supposed to be the villain(ess) in the movie--that would be a way to do it. But given all the reality bending, I imagine this is going to be a Mirror Maven that manipulates time and space.
    Exactly. Deception, misdirection etc.

    As for Mirror Master, I wouldn't mind a bit of both. Maybe it could even transition within a movie or series of movies (if not from Scudder to McCulloch, then at least from clever mirror tricks to discovering mirror dimensions.)

  8. #53
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Thawne and Grodd are just two villains. Most of Flash’s other villains were normal people. Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Golden Glider, Turtle, Trickster, Pied Piper, Captain Boomerang, Mirror Master, Heatwave and so on are all normal people with tech. There is only so much you can do with guns. I guess you could give them greatness and traps but I still think giving them powers makes for more interesting fights and like i said the only way to defeat them is make sure they stay down instead just taking their gadgets.

    What works in comics don’t always work in live action. This is why the CW series has relied on the particle accelerator and pseudoscience so much because it’s less believable that normal people with tech can take on the Flash. Like most Superman villains are super powered and most Batman villains are mobsters and while there certainly are exceptions they fit in with what their hero can be challenged with. Flash can have normal villains and meta. For metas Id say Professor Zoom, Grodd, Weather Wizard, Top/Turbine, Multiplex, Golden Glider, Heatwave and Mirror Master and for normal villains Turtle, Dr Alchemy, Abra Ladabra, Captain Cold, Trickster, Pied Piper etc

    Regardless I still think Golden Glider is an objective improvement. Pre New 52 she was just an ice skater and in the CW series she is basically the same as Cold with her own gun. Letting her become a ghost was awesome and weather wizard and mirror master are just more plausible. Like I said they can start off as normal people then an accident merges them with their weapons
    Yeah they're only two villains - I only expect 2 or 3 Flash movies, with only a few villains per movie with Thawne and Grodd taking the main villain slots. The rest of the Rogues will either be supporting villains or team up for a sequel. So as secondary villains or a big team, I don't see any need to alter them from their iconic non-power sets here.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I don't really think it's a question of being overpowered. Flash has shown incredible feats for at least 30 years now, but the Rogues are written as intelligent crooks who work together and avoid a head-on fight. Again, I don't see how Cold extending one hand while holding gun is weak and beyond believable, but Cold shooting ice out of both extended hands makes it palatable for you.
    I don’t get your point. When Barry Allen started off as the flash it made sense he’d struggle again criminals with high technology. But under Wally things like the speed force were introduced making him ridiculously OP which is why most of Waid’s villains were meta humans. And Cold did much more than just shoot ice out of his hands. He could create constructs, blizzards, make ice armor and freeze Flash by touching him plus his powers never run out of charge. Snart still has his intelligence plus a more potent offense.

    As for "the stupidity of comics", I don't see why a group of common criminals getting incredible powers is any less stupid than tweaking existing technology. Some of their technology was stolen from advanced technological institutions to begin with. Weather modification already exists, flamethrowers exist, etc.
    Because it’s more plausible that someone as powerful as the flash would struggle against geniuses with superpowers than geniuses without superpowers. This is why the only mainstream Superman villain who doesn’t have powers is Lex Luthor but even he uses Kryptonite and specially designed mechs and suits to fight Superman... if need be since most of the time he plays others to do his dirty work. Inversely very few Batman villains have super powers. Poison Ivy can control plants (though is often too caring for them to use their full potential) and she’s about it, Clayface can change his form (though both of them have recently started to reform) and ManBat is more of a monster than a villain and that’s about it. I don’t think Grundy is specifically a Batman villain but if you want to include him I guess he has superpowers. I’m not sure if Killer Croc counts as a meta human since he has a medical disorder that is making him devolve but even at his most monstrously phase he has never been impossibly strong. Bane maybe counts as having superpowers though Venom is just super steroid and even without venom he is naturally strong. Ra’s uses the Lazarus Pit to keep himself young and strong. But for the most part Batman villains are normal people with gadgets just like Batman. Joker, Scarecrow, Penguin, Two Face, Riddler, Catwoman, Mr Freeze, Firefly, Deadshot, Black Mask, Vantrilquist, Rat Catcher, Crazy Quilt, Calendar Man, Kite Man, Cat Man, Zebra Man and Polka Dot Man are all just normal guys who are either really smart or use tech

  10. #55
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    COOLEST fight I've seen with the Flash:






  11. #56
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    Having him struggle with one Rogue at the start, makes the team up even more challenging.

    Cold's powers could conceivably slow down the Flash here-- Not so much some mist emanating off the cold gun.

  12. #57
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    I don’t get your point. When Barry Allen started off as the flash it made sense he’d struggle again criminals with high technology. But under Wally things like the speed force were introduced making him ridiculously OP which is why most of Waid’s villains were meta humans. And Cold did much more than just shoot ice out of his hands. He could create constructs, blizzards, make ice armor and freeze Flash by touching him plus his powers never run out of charge. Snart still has his intelligence plus a more potent offense.
    Why would Captain Cold need to shoot ice out of his hands and create constructs when his gadgets alone can freeze an entire city?



    I mean, that's already extremely OP.

  13. #58
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    Why doesn't the U.S. government use similar tech for their in-universe conflicts?

    Can this tech be used to freeze the melting polar ice caps?

    Legally, CC can't be compelled to do something he doesn't want to, but the tech is still available.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Why would Captain Cold need to shoot ice out of his hands and create constructs when his gadgets alone can freeze an entire city?



    I mean, that's already extremely OP.
    And also defies the laws of physics. Also something that he never seems to use again. Look the Silver Age focused more on adventures than overarching narratives. You’re underestimating Cold’s abilities when he had powers. It was so much more than shooting ice out of his hands. And Heatwave could even create fire skeletons and engulf himself in flames

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    I don’t get your point. When Barry Allen started off as the flash it made sense he’d struggle again criminals with high technology. But under Wally things like the speed force were introduced making him ridiculously OP which is why most of Waid’s villains were meta humans. And Cold did much more than just shoot ice out of his hands. He could create constructs, blizzards, make ice armor and freeze Flash by touching him plus his powers never run out of charge. Snart still has his intelligence plus a more potent offense.
    My point is that post-Speedforce Wally went against the Rogues many times and writers still found ways to make the conflict believable.

    What you're describing is Killer Frost, Ice, Icemaiden, Ice Man, Icicle, etc. which just isn't as interesting to me and changes the persona/themes of Captain Cold & the Rogues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Because it’s more plausible that someone as powerful as the flash would struggle against geniuses with superpowers than geniuses without superpowers. This is why the only mainstream Superman villain who doesn’t have powers is Lex Luthor but even he uses Kryptonite and specially designed mechs and suits to fight Superman... if need be since most of the time he plays others to do his dirty work. Inversely very few Batman villains have super powers. Poison Ivy can control plants (though is often too caring for them to use their full potential) and she’s about it, Clayface can change his form (though both of them have recently started to reform) and ManBat is more of a monster than a villain and that’s about it. I don’t think Grundy is specifically a Batman villain but if you want to include him I guess he has superpowers. I’m not sure if Killer Croc counts as a meta human since he has a medical disorder that is making him devolve but even at his most monstrously phase he has never been impossibly strong. Bane maybe counts as having superpowers though Venom is just super steroid and even without venom he is naturally strong. Ra’s uses the Lazarus Pit to keep himself young and strong. But for the most part Batman villains are normal people with gadgets just like Batman. Joker, Scarecrow, Penguin, Two Face, Riddler, Catwoman, Mr Freeze, Firefly, Deadshot, Black Mask, Vantrilquist, Rat Catcher, Crazy Quilt, Calendar Man, Kite Man, Cat Man, Zebra Man and Polka Dot Man are all just normal guys who are either really smart or use tech
    Sure, if you make the Rogues more powerful, then they will be more powerful. But I think it makes them less special and they lose in the trade-off. It's not SO implausible and unconvincing that writers can't find clever ways to do it. They have and will continue to.

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