Are you disappointed 5G will no longer happen?

[SecretWarrior]

I love John Stewart but he would never have outsold Hal Jordan. Hal Jordan posted six figure sales numbers and outsold Superman for a good 5 years.

I was on comic hiatus those years, but it looks on par with Kyle, good to see him and Guy getting some spotlight though, love em both.

When they give John a solo title I will read it, but as of yet, he is always in the shadow of another Green Lantern, he even gets replaced on the JLA with the new Green Lantern flavour of the week. The problem with being a duplicate.

All the GLs get swapped around, so that's not a John issue. He's also getting an editorial push now that Didio is gone. His continued mainstream appearances and toy licenses testify to his evergreen popularity. Hal was proppoed by big events. Once those went away, the numbers dropped. We've seen lots of creative changes as a result.

[The no face guy]

All the GLs get swapped around, so that's not a John issue. He's also getting an editorial push now that Didio is gone. His continued mainstream appearances and toy licenses testify to his evergreen popularity.

I've already had this dance with you, take it to the Green Lantern forum if you want to revisit it.

There are too many Green Lanterns, John gets pushed to add diversity to an all white JLA team, that's it, but he's still a duplicate, Hal has had the Green Lantern title for 15 years, Kyle less than 10, than pretty much Hal. When did John last hold the Green Lantern title....oh I know, never!


How about Black Panther runs, 1977, 1988, 2005, 2009, 2016, 2018. Aren't they starting a new one now?

Black Panther stands in the shadow of no one, duplicate heroes have a short lived history at Marvel, and that's why they are number 1.

[Samm]

Look at where John Stewart is at, look at where Black Panther, Luke Cage and Black Lightning are at, no comparison. John Stewart hasn't had his own title since the early 90's.

Mr. Terrific is a mass improvement on a relatively obscure character. Cassandra didn't have to stand in the shadows, because until recently we all accepted Barbara as Oracle, and Jamie Reyes is an original character all but in name.

Vixen is quite popular, the only reason why some duplicate heroes get a bit of traction is because they get put on a superteam like the JLA, but they will always be in the shadows of a bigger name. Jessica Cruz is one duplicate to many. There are too many Green Lanterns, kill her off.

Jessica Cruz is to the male Green Lantern what Supergirl/Batgirl are to Superman/Batman. The female counterpart and not the lead of the franchise. DC isn’t pushing her as the lead.

Mister Terrific, Batgirl and Blue Beetle are all still technically legacy characters so my point still stands. They may have a lot of development, villains, their own support cast and home base, but they’re still legacies (ala Miles and Kamala).

Original characters just don’t stick, as we’ve seen with DC’s recent attempt “New Age of Heroes” or how their push for Vibe went. My guess is if they tried pushing Vixen, Karen/Mal, Fire...etc it’s go the same way it did with Vibe. Basically:

Jaime > Cisco and Derek
Jessica > Beatriz
John > Vic and Mal

I hope their push for Black Lightning sticks though but history says it likely won’t unfortunately

Edit: Simon, Guy, Alan and Kyle have a higher chance of being killed off than Jessica does, just saying

[SecretWarrior]

I've already had this dance with you, take it to the Green Lantern forum if you want to revisit it.

There are too many Green Lanterns, John gets pushed to add diversity to an all white JLA team, that's it, but he's still a duplicate, Hal has had the Green Lantern title for 15 years, Kyle less than 10, than pretty much Hal. When did John last hold the Green Lantern title....oh I know, never!


How about Black Panther runs, 1977, 1988, 2005, 2009, 2016, 2018. Aren't they starting a new one now?

Black Panther stands in the shadow of no one, duplicate heroes have a short lived history at Marvel, and that's why they are number 1.

You keep ignoring that John was the lead and only human Lantern in the New 52 GL book under Jensen. Not convenient for your narrative though.

Just like his appearances in movies, games, and TV shows or his ongoing licensing for action figures.

Edit: Simon, Guy, Alan and Kyle have a higher chance of being killed off than Jessica does, just saying

Quoted for truth.

[The no face guy]

Jessica Cruz is to the male Green Lantern what Supergirl/Batgirl are to Superman/Batman. The female counterpart and not the lead of the franchise. DC isn’t pushing her as the lead.

Mister Terrific, Batgirl and Blue Beetle are all still technically legacy characters so my point still stands. They may have a lot of development, villains, their own support cast and home base, but they’re still legacies (ala Miles and Kamala).

Original characters just don’t stick, as we’ve seen with DC’s recent attempt “New Age of Heroes” or how their push for Vibe went. My guess is if they tried pushing Vixen, Karen/Mal, Fire...etc it’s go the same way it did with Vibe. Basically:

Jaime > Cisco and Derek
Jessica > Beatriz
John > Vic and Mal

I hope their push for Black Lightning sticks though but history says it likely won’t unfortunately

Black Lightning is in it's third Netflix season, I'd say that sticks. They should be promoting him like Marvel does Black Panther, but they don't. Vixen also sticks despite being sidelined for... input diversity duplicate hero in the JLA here.

Yes, but again Cassandra Cain was accepted as Batgirl because we all accepted Barbara as Oracle. I was extremely upset when they brought her back as Batgirl, I love Cassandra
Mr Terrific is a Geoff Johns upgrade on a JSA member that no one really cared about, it was perfect!
I am extremely biased to Ted Kord, but Jamie Reyes is an original character in all but name, you have to give him that.

Jessica on the other hand, is just a knock off, and your correct, she will never be popular enough to hold the Green Lantern title, but she will be there to be in the JLA, when the person holding the Green Lantern title should be in it for sale reasons. Afterall the JLA is supposed to be the best of the best, not some of the best plus duplicates.

[Samm]

Black Lightning is in it's third Netflix season, I'd say that sticks. They should be promoting him like Marvel does Black Panther, but they don't. Vixen also sticks despite being sidelined for... input diversity duplicate hero in the JLA here.

Yes, but again Cassandra Cain was accepted as Batgirl because we all accepted Barbara as Oracle. I was extremely upset when they brought her back as Batgirl, I love Cassandra
Mr Terrific is a Geoff Johns upgrade on a JSA member that no one really cared about, it was perfect!
I am extremely biased to Ted Kord, but Jamie Reyes is an original character in all but name, you have to give him that.

Jessica on the other hand, is just a knock off, and your correct, she will never be popular enough to hold the Green Lantern title, but she will be there to be in the JLA, when the person holding the Green Lantern title should be in it for sale reasons. Afterall the JLA is supposed to be the best of the best, not some of the best plus duplicates.

I’d argue Jessica is far more popular than all but Hal and John. Those two are the ones battling for the lead role in the franchise. Jessica has her niche to fill, the female counterpart. If it were up to me Hal, John and Jessica would be the only GL’s. The others would be dead or given new roles.

So basically, Cass worked because Babs moved on from the role, Michael worked because his predecessor had been inactive for decades, and Jaime worked because he’s his own character in all but name.

I think there was a thread on original vs legacy characters in terms of success and the legacy ones slaughtered the original characters. I’d love for original creations to stick but they don’t unfortunately.

[The no face guy]

You keep ignoring that John was the lead and only human Lantern in the New 52 GL book under Jensen. Not convenient for your narrative though.

Just like his appearances in movies, games, and TV shows or his ongoing licensing for action figures.

That's a little disingenuous Guy Gardner was all over that series.

It has nothing to do with my narrative, I already explained that I was on a comic hiatus at the time and wasn't aware of it. Do you want to know why? Oh because DC comics killed of too of my favourite heroes (Vic & Ted) to bring in replacement heroes. So I gave DC comics the middle finger salute and went over to Marvel, and today I read just as much Marvel as I do DC. Way to go DC, thumbs up to you!!!

Duplicate heroes don't work. They stand in the shadows and eventually get replaced. Look at Wally West, the duplicate exemplar. The one everyone agreed the mantle should be passed to. Where is he now???

[The no face guy]

I’d argue Jessica is far more popular than all but Hal and John. Those two are the ones battling for the lead role in the franchise. Jessica has her niche to fill, the female counterpart. If it were up to me Hal, John and Jessica would be the only GL’s. The others would be dead or given new roles.

So basically, Cass worked because Babs moved on from the role, Michael worked because his predecessor had been inactive for decades, and Jaime worked because he’s his own character in all but name.

I think there was a thread on original vs legacy characters in terms of success and the legacy ones slaughtered the original characters. I’d love for original creations to stick but they don’t unfortunately.

We'll agree to disagree. You make Black Lightning and Vixen permanent members of the JLA instead of brining in substitute duplicate hero number 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and they will stick. Duplicate heroes are a failed experiment, Marvel doesn't have this problem, and they don't have the endless bickering of my duplicate should replace Hal or my duplicate should have a title.

[Username taken]

Re:replacements. Not all replacements are successful but ultimately it falls on how creative handle them.

Miles Morales is a duplicate but is very successful because Marvel committed to it. There are very few kids today that don’t know there are two Spider-mans around. He’s gotten a major Oscar winning animated film and now a huge video game. Ms Marvel is also very successful because there was serious commitment to utilizing the character in major roles in comics and other media. People were crying about Captain Marvel but the movie ended up grossing over a billion dollars and now after several attempts the book now sells well (although the current run being the best it’s been for a while really helps).

There’s no reason for characters like John Stewart, Jaime Reyes, Cassandra Cain to not have more prominent roles in the DCU. When these characters were first created, there seemed to be major commitment to them but overtime, that age old comic book problem of “regressing to the normal” kicked in. Its not just with minority characters, DC did the same thing with Wally West and Kyle Rayner.

In the past, it made sense to keep everything as is with little change because comics were selling hundreds of thousands with multiple forms of distribution. But today, it makes little sense to cater exclusively to the rapidly shrinking direct market when there’s a much larger market out there (there’s a reason why Miles and Kamala get a lot of traction outside of the direct market) that’s clearly untapped. It falls on the publisher to find ways to sell different characters to markets that desire them. If Cassie Cain or John Stewart do well in book stores, then focus those characters on that market.

[Digifiend]

Yes, but the reason they worked and Riri (for example) hasn't is because they have fleshed out character traits, fully developed backstories, unique supporting casts, & different power-sets (more so Kamala than Miles), which has moved them beyond their initial stand-in status.

Helps that Miles actually started out replacing a dead alternate universe Peter, and was merged into main continuity having already been established for four years. And Kamala didn't replace Carol at all. Carol took the vacant Captain Marvel title after the deaths of three of the four previous ones (Mar-Vell, Genis-Vell and Phyla-Vell), leaving her old Ms. Marvel mantle vacant, which Kamala took upon gaining her completely different powers - while Kamala originally idolised Carol, which is why chose the name, and Carol's one of her mentors (along with Iron Man), she's really just recycling an abandoned name. Riri, on the other hand, was introduced by Bendis in his Iron Man run, then a few months later, Tony got put in a coma and Riri, now codenamed Ironheart, took over the book. That introduction was too rushed, her taking over wasn't organic, and frankly she needed rescuing from the Scrappy heap by Jim Zub in Champions and Eve Ewing in her next solo book.

Vixen is quite popular, the only reason why some duplicate heroes get a bit of traction is because they get put on a superteam like the JLA, but they will always be in the shadows of a bigger name. Jessica Cruz is one duplicate to many. There are too many Green Lanterns, kill her off.

Jessica isn't the duplicate, she's a distaff counterpart like Supergirl and Batgirl. She only has the same codename because she's part of a Corps and the name isn't gender specific (though one animation renamed her Limelight). If anyone's a duplicate, it's Simon Baz, who was introduced only about a year earlier.

[SecretWarrior]

That's a little disingenuous Guy Gardner was all over that series.

It has nothing to do with my narrative, I already explained that I was on a comic hiatus at the time and wasn't aware of it. Do you want to know why? Oh because DC comics killed of too of my favourite heroes (Vic & Ted) to bring in replacement heroes. So I gave DC comics the middle finger salute and went over to Marvel, and today I read just as much Marvel as I do DC. Way to go DC, thumbs up to you!!!

Duplicate heroes don't work. They stand in the shadows and eventually get replaced. Look at Wally West, the duplicate exemplar. The one everyone agreed the mantle should be passed to. Where is he now???

No, Guy left GLC to hold his own Red Lanterns title. John held the book as a solo human character, outselling both Kyle (New Guardians) and Guy (Red Lanterns). But again, these facts are not convenient for your narrative. If John had the GL book while Hal had GLC, John would've probably outsold him since GL is the main franchise book and GLC is a spinoff title. John is DC's only black A-lister who can work the paragon role like his Justice League team mates. He can actually carry a film that would do well internationally.

Captain Marvel, Ghost Rider, and Ant-Man are also different mantle characters, so what's your point? Alan Scott is the first GL and is connected to the Corps in some iteration through the Starheart. Marvel shows that editorial commitment is all it takes to lead a franchise.

[The no face guy]

No, Guy left GLC to hold his own Red Lanterns title. John held the book as a solo human character, outselling both Kyle (New Guardians) and Guy (Red Lanterns). But again, these facts are not convenient for your narrative. If John had the GL book while Hal had GLC, John would've probably outsold him since GL is the main franchise book and GLC is a spinoff title. John is DC's only black A-lister who can work the paragon role like his Justice League team mates. He can actually carry a film that would do well internationally.

Captain Marvel, Ghost Rider, and Ant-Man are also different mantle characters, so what's your point? Alan Scott is the first GL and is connected to the Corps in some iteration through the Starheart. Marvel shows that editorial commitment is all it takes to lead a franchise.

Again, I've already had this song and dance with you in the Green Lantern thread. I don't wish to revisit it, because I've already said what I had to say.

Traditionally Hal Jordan has been my favourite Green Lantern only because he was my favourite superhero as a child, no other reason but sentimental attachment.

I like John Stewart very much and would be happy to have him take over at this point, but as explained a thousand times, duplicate heroes are not a good way to bring in diversity because they will always be in the shadows, or be threatened of being replaced by the popular original.

Black Panther and Luke Cage do not have this problem.

[PCN24454]

There's sadly little need to replace characters since superheroes never retire.

[marvelprince]

There's sadly little need to replace characters since superheroes never retire.

But in long form stories the replacements can be used to tell some fun stories. Grant Morissons Batman and Robin are perfect examples. Same with a new Fantastic Four lineup or Sam or Bucky as Cap or Superior Spider-Man.

[Dred]

I'm very in favor of the idea of progressing history forward instead of rounding the drain on the same characters over and over.

That said I think it's probably in everyone's best interest in wasn't Didio leading a creative initiative based on legacy. And the fact that he was trying to do it all in a big, stupid event instead of naturally through the course of each franchise's own means shows exactly how misguided he was. He was doing it as a publicity stunt rather than actually believing in character growth and progression. 5G was conveyed badly and likely would've been bad, even if some seed of it has concepts I love (like older heroes moving on and newer ones coming in or stepping up into prominence).