View Poll Results: Overall has DC done a good job with handling these characters?

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  • YES, DC has done a great job

    17 43.59%
  • NO, they were just publicity stunts

    22 56.41%
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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Samm's Avatar
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    Default Diverse Legacy: Where Are They Now?


    Before Marvel did it in the early to mid 2010’s (Miles, Kamala, Sam, Robbie, Laura) and made some huge waves, publicity wise, DC had done a similar thing in the early to mid 2000’s (Jaime, Jason, Ryan, Cassandra, Kendra). Both companies had the idea of introducing a new, diverse legacy for some of their heroes to better reflect the changing demographics of the USA. Of course the characters I’ve mentioned above aren’t the only examples as more came later (ie Khalid, Jessica, Simon for DC, Riri, Adameus for Marvel). In every instance from Miles to Jaime to Khalid to Adameus, the change was met with resentment and hostility from fans, though years later many of them have gone on to be successful in their own right and have large fan bases of their own. Since this is a DC thread, we will focus on the DC characters, but feel free to compare them to their Marvel counterparts as well, especially in regards to treatment and success.

    1) How did you originally feel about the introduction of a new Hawkgirl (Kendra), Batgirl (Cass Cain), Firestorm (Jason Rusch), Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes), and Atom (Ryan Choi) in the early 2000’s? Did it match the sentiment of others at the time?

    2) How would you rate DC’s handling of these characters in the last 20 years? Are they still being handled well or were they used as just a publicity stunt?

    3) What’s your opinion on the next generation of diverse legacies (ie Khalid Dr Fate, Jessica and Simon Green Lantern)?

    4) Who would you say is the most successful of the diverse legacies?
    Last edited by Samm; 09-19-2020 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #2
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    1. Jaime was obviously the most successful, since he had the best creative team that managed to make him likable. Jason was a coward for 2/3rds of his run, which wouldn't win over fans. He was fine for the 5-10 issues McDuffie wrote, but nothing special. Ryan Choi was never going to work because the Atom concept is supporting player at best. Cassandra was popular and one of the edgiest Bat characters. She could still be a film character.

    2. Not a publicity stunt, but these were never A-list concepts in the first place. Blue Beetle rose highest in terms of recognizability and actually has an in-universe niche as DC's Peter Parker, dealing with space and magic threats. New 52 hurt him in terms of characterization.

    3. Dr. Fate should be an Arab character, especially given the origins of the helmet and the excellent voice work by Oded Fehr on JLU. Should be an adult character, not a teenager. Spellcasters have a harder time catching on, but he could be DC's Dr. Strange, which is kind of the John Constantine role. Right now he's just a half measure since there's no real push. Jessica has staying power as the Supergirl or Batgirl to the Green Lantern franchise. Simon is going to fade into obscurity since there are too many GLs. Best bet for him is joining another core or taking on a new identity. Maybe send him to the future to become a Legion member. Time shifting can de-age him.

    4. Of the ones identified above, Jaime. DC needs to play up the Peter Parker thing though and have him be a good-hearted, smart kid who gets occasional advice from more established heroes.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member El_Gato's Avatar
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    1) I can’t tell you how I felt because I wasn’t reading comics at the time. I used to frequent the DC message boards back in the day when I was a freshman/sophomore in high school and I do remember all the hate these characters got, with the exception of Casandra who was embraced. I liked all the characters and my first introduction to them, well Jaime, Ryan and Jason was through Batman: Brave and the Bold so I guess I didn’t match up to the sentiment at the time.

    2) Jaime is probably the only one they’ve handled well. Cassandra was written out of character and then tossed into limbo, Ryan was killed off shortly after his solo finished and Jason is no longer Firestorm. It’s been a rough 15 years for 3/4 of the characters. Kendra is way too complicated to even comment on. Though on the bright side all 5 of them have outside media exposure, Jaime being the character with the most. None of them were a publicity stunt as far as I’m concerned. As far as where are they now, Cassandra is on the Outsiders, Kendra is on the Justice League, Jaime is on the Terrifics, Ryan is on the Terrifics, and Jason is in limbo, we’ll see what the relaunch next year has in store for them.

    3) Khalid and Jessica have saying power. Like Secret Warrior said, it’s great to finally have an Arab Dr Fate (Egyptian) and Jessica will be the Supergirl/Batgirl of the Green Lantern franchise. Simon needs to find another niche or code name if he wants to stick around. He’s currently in limbo so that’s saying a lot on how DC views him.

    4) Jaime Reyes by far, he’s the one that has had the most exposure outside of comics, which has enabled him to build up a sizable fan base that is now bigger than his predecessors. Jaime is Blue Beetle to a lot more fans than Ted or Dan are, can’t say the same for Ryan, Cassandra, Kendra, Khalid, or Simon. Jessica is a special case as she’s the Sueprgirl/Batgirl of her franchise and so has a separate niche to fill. Jason is also another special case as many see Firestorm as a Black guy now thanks to the CW shows and Injustice, despite the former featuring Jefferson and not Jason.


    Overall though I feel DC has had more success introducing new diverse legacies over new diverse original characters (see new age of heroes).
    Last edited by El_Gato; 09-19-2020 at 03:45 PM.
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  4. #4
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    They did a great job with robbie. They're not doing much with him now.
    Firestorm the original didn't catch on well so slapping a brown coat of paint isn't going to make him more believed. I'm a fan of the change its just they have mediocre wrtiing
    failed synergy with Legends of tomorrow (not the same black guy) and a firestorm matrix that really isn't exclusive to the character and it just leads no where when there are like "X" different firestorms
    about upon occasion.
    Kind of the same thing with the Atom really... and I find myself suddenly aware of this reading whats been written here.

    As a fan of the JLI and really liking Ted Kord, y'know... When he died and it kind of at the time meant something ... it didn't sting or FEEL like DC said:
    we need a new diverse line up lets kill him off and make a spanish kid.

    So when they made reyes I admit rolling my eyes for a second but then I got intrigued its was interesting the way that the Scarab WAS owned by Garret, and Kord never used it but finally 3 generations of heroes in a hero
    finds it and it comes to life. It was well done.

    The rest of the changes feel :/ hamfisted or irrelevant, and when I squint my eyes and pull the picture back kinda stupid and thoughtless.


    Dr. Fate for example people reading doctor fate who where checking for him in the JSA or what-not really just stop reading when you dump they're fave in a reboot "New 52 Style"

    THEN... people who were not looking for him really still aren't unless something extraordinary and well written and interesting is brought to the forefront of dc comics themselves. It really wasn't.
    Humorous to me is the fact that they just knew "We need someone named Khalid" so on on earth you get Khalid Nassour and then you get Khalid-bin Hassin on the other world.
    The whole thing is pretty laughable so yeah, I do think its a failed publicity stunt but really the push for diversity needs to take a FAAAAAAR back seat with dc comics.

    Why? They don't know how to utilize the properties they have other than the bat. Just thinking narratively and no I don't agree that Dr. Fate NEEDs or even SHOULD to be an Arab character. . . its just people
    looking in the wrong direction. It doesn't matter WHO Nabu uses as a vessel...
    Here's the deal with fate:
    The mantle of fate being passed off should be a HUUUUGE deal in Dc.

    "The Search for fate" or "The War for Fate" should have been a DC crossover that they actually used to bring Doc Fate into more prominent position but... they didn't.

    The Helm of Nabu? Its SHOULD BE a BIG FRIKKEN DEAL, its one of the Checks and balances for the "Superman" its a terrifyingly powerful magic artifact that someone can just put on an immediately either become world tippinly powerful or... become a puppet for an Ancient Sorcerer.
    I think even marvel did a quest for a new sorcerer supreme, but while DC cant exist on a different axis, the principal is the same.

    The bearer of that helmet is someone that the JLA needs to have contact with/concern themselves with/ have on their team/under they're control.

    It could very well be some Yazidi kid but it really shouldn't matter and it only matters to us because we are currently hyper-intently stupidly scrutinizing everything under this awkward racial lens.

    When it come to legacy... what matters ISN'T the diversity of the characters ... when it comes to legacy its ALWAYS going to always feel unsatisfying.... the changes will always feel empty.

    Unless they TELL A STORY WORTH READING concerning that legacy. Make that legcay MATTER. Make it unique. Make it prominent.


    I don't even support all the diversity changes in an of themselves. No. If they purpose was to save a dying franchise of breathe new life into a property they don't know how to use... Great.

    If its just so we have an Cassadra who exist for a little while in an ALREADY too crowded property then to vanish until she's presented terribly in a feature film... because ... "we diverse ovah here boss"
    then it just more dust.

    The whole universe is just in-shambles and you can tell when they gave up and just started making everyone batman and - who laughs. So they need to a better job in other areas before worrying about this.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 09-19-2020 at 04:10 PM.
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  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    One legacy I thought had a lot of potential was the new Crimson Avenger that was introduced in JSA. She had the cursed magical guns and was pretty cool. And it definitely was not a case of moving aside an established hero for a new diversity hire for those who hate that kind of thing. Crimson Avenger was a dead concept, which was odd considering they were calling him the first "mystery man" of the DCU at the time. But yeah, she was cool and deserved another chance.

    Also, I liked Khalid Dr Fate, but the series took soooo long with their first storyline to get him going, that I couldn't keep on. I had hoped he would grow into the role more and I could get the trades, but I guess he never took off.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 09-19-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Really I'd only say they did a really good job with Jaime. The others there's still potential there but some were unceremoniously killed off, others I think just have flat disappeared.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    I really liked Jaime.
    I really liked his costume.
    I really liked his powers.

    I did not like him being given Blue Beetle's name.
    Ted still had lots of potential, and his being replaced felt 'convenient' for the JLI-haters.

    Ibis was available...
    Scarab, too.
    I could probably think of some more, if given enough time and my Who's Who issues.

    I think it's commendable to bring in more diverse characters, but when you pick fan-favorite characters to replace instead of obscure characters not seen in forever, you're only going to sabotage any gains.
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  8. #8
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    Dime store chumps to me. To join the countless other failed books of 21st century.

    Until the platform is there to let people do what they want and support / defend them while they do it, everything is just destined to slide into the bland wastelands and these characters and so many others are lost in the corporate zeitgeist.

  9. #9
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    1) How did you originally feel about the introduction of a new Hawkgirl (Kendra), Batgirl (Cass Cain), Firestorm (Jason Rusch), Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes), and Atom (Ryan Choi) in the early 2000’s? Did it match the sentiment of others at the time?


    Hawkgirl (Kendra) - I generally think duplicate heroes are a bad idea because they pit the fanbase against each other, and cheapen the hero as they become a dime a dozen. I don't recall her in Geoff John's Hawkman run, so I'm assuming she was JLA? (I have a no Hal no JSA rule, so there are a ton a duplicate heroes in the JLA I'm not aware of.

    Batgirl (Cassandra) Loved it! I think everyone had generally accepted that Barbara was now Oracle, and the whole trained super assassin by Lady Shiva was super cool. If your going to bring in a duplicate hero, than 1) either the original character is out of the way (Barbara, Barry), or 2) the new character is a much better upgrade than the old character (Mr. Terrific)

    Firestorm (Jason) - Ambivalent, I've never been a Firestorm fan, but I can feel Ronnie fans pain, as so many of my favourite characters have been replaced.

    Blue Beetle (Jamie) - F'n po'd! Ted Kord was one of my favourite characters, so I was livid when they blew his brains out and replaced him. I think they should do that to Batman, see how Bruce Wayne fans like it.

    Atom (Ryan) - See Firestorm answer.


    2) How would you rate DC’s handling of these characters in the last 20 years? Are they still being handled well or were they used as just a publicity stunt?

    I think they show that DC's replacement character experiment is an utter failure, as most of the above list has taken a back seat to the originals, so now they are stuck in the shadows, but worse still, now you have duplicate heroes running around. There really should be only 1 of each character, how popular would Batman be if there were 6 Batman's floating about.

    If you want successful diversity in the DC universe, than create original exciting characters that will eventually catch on, and don't have to compete with the popular originals.


    3) What’s your opinion on the next generation of diverse legacies (ie Khalid Dr Fate, Jessica and Simon Green Lantern)?


    There are already too many Green Lanterns, kill Jessica and Simon off, and keep the five they have (Alan, Hal, John, Kyle, Guy)

    I don't mind the new Dr. Fate, but I think a magical guy like that should be an older wiser character like Gandalf or Dr. Strange.

    4) Who would you say is the most successful of the diverse legacies?

    I would say Jamie Reyes is the most successful character because he's not really a duplicate of Ted Kord, he has different powers and abilities, and his own uniform. In other words, with the exception of his name he is pretty original. (Dan Garrett aside)

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Laufeyson's Avatar
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Whoah there needs to be some more options here!

    Like yes these are all incredibly awesome characters but DC has done a horrible job with them.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Whoah there needs to be some more options here!
    Like yes these are all incredibly awesome characters but DC has done a horrible job with them.
    THIS

    Cass sold and someone who is not there anymore said she was TOXIC. That movie does not matter when she was gone and her few trades were out of print before that was greenlighted.

    Jason-it's not his fault New 52 screwed up the Brightest Day storyline with him and Ronnie and NOBODY wanted to do the New 52 book. Then Ronnie's creator got rid of him and didn't know a thing about him. Then Johns got rid of ROnnie.

    Jaime was different because his origin of his powers were made different from Ted's. In reality you can have Jaime with a new name since he's way different from Ted now.

    Dr Fate getting a new owner SHOULD have been a bigger deal like it was on the cartoon show.


    3) What’s your opinion on the next generation of diverse legacies (ie Khalid Dr Fate, Jessica and Simon Green Lantern)
    They were all screwed over in petty agendas. There is ZERO excuse for Jessica & Simon to be around-yet we all know why because someone named John was suppose to be gone.
    Now we got 10 of them and a certain faction wants their guy back on Justice League DESPITE him having a well received mini series.

    Like Iron Chip said the PLATFORM is the issue. Which is becoming a running theme.

    The DC messageboard was pure TOXIC to Jason and Jaime fans. That is part of the reason it is gone.
    Yet when we look at these guys-they don't have issues finding places in shows, dvd movies, OGN, toys and video games.

    Look at the writers you have-too many grew up at a time POC weren't doing much in books. Especially in big name books. So they have no use for most of these guys and you see the results.

    The antics of the past are screwing up the present and trying to do the same with the future.
    You can get away with 15 versions of Batman because the chance of those books being crappy or not promoted is slim to none.

    You can't do that with Jaime.

    There really should be only 1 of each character, how popular would Batman be if there were 6 Batman's floating about.
    We already got that many versions of Batman running around. We got toys in stores featuring Batmen that are at stores because only comic book fans know who Batman who Laughs and all the rest are. So the MAIN target kids are ignoring them.

    If we go by your idea we should only have ONE version of Power Rangers and Dr Who.

  13. #13
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post

    We already got that many versions of Batman running around. We got toys in stores featuring Batmen that are at stores because only comic book fans know who Batman who Laughs and all the rest are. So the MAIN target kids are ignoring them.

    If we go by your idea we should only have ONE version of Power Rangers and Dr Who.
    Power Rangers and Doctor Who are not DC superheroes. Power Rangers are a team, Doctor Who has a tradition of metamorphosizing into a different looking doctor, but it is still the doctor regardless of gender.

    In the world of comics, Bruce Wayne is the only one running around regularly in the Batman cowl unlike the Green Lanterns who are a dime a dozen and easily replacable now. Flash is becoming a joke to, there are too many speedsters to keep count. I like Wallace and would like to seem him take the mantle one day but...

    The sidekick issue has become a real problem, now you have several different protgs out there, Green Arrow is becoming a mess.

    Obviously you have to keep a lot of the duplicates now because they have strong fan bases, but DC needs to stop producing more, and clean out a lot of the less popular ones in the next big crisis.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    DC threw them away and didn't continue spotlighting them which is what DC is best at doing.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    1. I wasn't really reading comics at the time or paying attention to what was going on.

    2. About a 6, decent effort but the characters leave a lot to be desired. They've tried with Jaime and Ryan but way more could/can be done.

    3. I think they're cool, they just need to keep being using in future stories. Especially Simon.

    4. If we're counting Damian since he's part arabic (and asian I think?) then it'd be him but if we're just talking about characters mentioned in this thread then it's Blue Beetle.
    Last edited by 9th.; 09-20-2020 at 04:06 AM.
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