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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Dante Milton's Avatar
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    Default Tini Howard Battle of the Atom Interview

    Probably not worth it's own thread, because there isn't much to it, but oh well.

    http://www.xavierfiles.com/2020/09/2...h-tini-howard/

    Some bullet points:

    - Excalibur pitch started by Tini being interested in what happens to Apocalypse in this new era, she thought he would want to go back and reclaim what has been lost over the years.
    - Her interest in mutant magic is more about how magic functions culturally in a society and not so much about fireballs and spells and such.
    - The Excalibur data pages were meant to foreshadow and really only make sense once the story develops. She and the interviewers seem to think that's great.
    - Tini describes her writing story as a long game. She's okay with readers being temporarily confused because she believes the payoff of the build up is worth it. Appreciates readers who are patient and trust her to eventually deliver.
    - The tarot in XoS is less about telling the future and more about explaining the characters and their role. Cards are chosen very purposefully.
    -Listener question answers: Betsy's body swap and issues will be addressed eventually
    - The idea behind [A]'s name is that it is only for mutants, the symbol was designed by Hickman.
    - The Fury might be showing up in Excalibur.
    - the Green Lagoon is mostly run by Fred Blob Dukes, Pixie works there sometimes.

    Hearing about her writing style explains a lot of my frustrations with Excalibur so far. There are a lot of writers who write for the long game, the trades, but that only works when the monthly issues are also satisfying on their own, and to me they mostly aren't. The issues of Excalibur that I have enjoyed most are the ones where things finally come to a head and the plot advances, everything leading up to those two issues reads like poorly executed filler, there isn't even particularly interesting character work to make those between issues compelling. Too many questions with a poor balance of answers being delivered, and once they are they are mostly underwhelming and the characters are being under served by the plot.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    So she basically did want to write an Apocalypse solo... it shows. :/

    I don't know, it shouldn't take 12 issues for us to get pay off on knowing why the characters being used are there. It's long-been past for her to establish why Jubilee, Gambit and Rogue are in Otherworld beyond happenstance.

  3. #3
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    The latest issue made more sense and was decent but man the whole leading up to it has not been good. Jubilee is just there and still makes no sense and I'm so sick of her going on about Shogo. Rogue and Gambit have been about useless. The small Candra plot was all Gambit's here for? Other than those issues he spent whining about Rogue.

    I guess they wanted to write about Apocalypse but every issue of X-Men he's in he's written way better by Hickman. The ]A{ thing is just dumb too.

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Milton View Post
    Probably not worth it's own thread, because there isn't much to it, but oh well.

    http://www.xavierfiles.com/2020/09/2...h-tini-howard/

    Some bullet points:

    - Excalibur pitch started by Tini being interested in what happens to Apocalypse in this new era, she thought he would want to go back and reclaim what has been lost over the years.
    - Her interest in mutant magic is more about how magic functions culturally in a society and not so much about fireballs and spells and such.
    - The Excalibur data pages were meant to foreshadow and really only make sense once the story develops. She and the interviewers seem to think that's great.
    - Tini describes her writing story as a long game. She's okay with readers being temporarily confused because she believes the payoff of the build up is worth it. Appreciates readers who are patient and trust her to eventually deliver.
    - The tarot in XoS is less about telling the future and more about explaining the characters and their role. Cards are chosen very purposefully.
    -Listener question answers: Betsy's body swap and issues will be addressed eventually
    - The idea behind [A]'s name is that it is only for mutants, the symbol was designed by Hickman.
    - The Fury might be showing up in Excalibur.
    - the Green Lagoon is mostly run by Fred Blob Dukes, Pixie works there sometimes.

    Hearing about her writing style explains a lot of my frustrations with Excalibur so far. There are a lot of writers who write for the long game, the trades, but that only works when the monthly issues are also satisfying on their own, and to me they mostly aren't. The issues of Excalibur that I have enjoyed most are the ones where things finally come to a head and the plot advances, everything leading up to those two issues reads like poorly executed filler, there isn't even particularly interesting character work to make those between issues compelling. Too many questions with a poor balance of answers being delivered, and once they are they are mostly underwhelming and the characters are being under served by the plot.
    I don't know why but this cracks me up. Yeah my main issue is that she isn't very good at executing the gardener approach to writing. In hoxpox here was a plot plus hickman dropping seeds here and there every issue, but with excalibur the build up and mystery seems to be the plot. You remove that and there is no real narrative or story being told. Personally I think if you spend too much time trying to build mystery, plot twists and trying to hard to keep your readers on their toes by giving them very little information/foreshadowing so they don't outsmart you or figure something out you don't want them to yet, you'll eventually lose your readers. They will either give halfway through because they are tired of being strung along or because you spent so much time aggrandising your ending and raised expectations so high, you eventually ended up shooting yourself in the foot because your ending doesn't deliver the the build up you promised.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Spinster Sinister's Avatar
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    The only thing cool about mutant magic happened in issue 12. The rest of it seems very much to be about fireballs and spells and cliched clothing.

    I'm still very much looking forward to her XoS contributions. I think she's doing great things with [A].

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    So she basically did want to write an Apocalypse solo... it shows. :/

    I don't know, it shouldn't take 12 issues for us to get pay off on knowing why the characters being used are there. It's long-been past for her to establish why Jubilee, Gambit and Rogue are in Otherworld beyond happenstance.
    Rachel should've been in Excalibur and Rogue should've been in X-Factor IMO.

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinster Sinister View Post
    The only thing cool about mutant magic happened in issue 12. The rest of it seems very much to be about fireballs and spells and cliched clothing.

    I'm still very much looking forward to her XoS contributions. I think she's doing great things with [A].



    Rachel should've been in Excalibur and Rogue should've been in X-Factor IMO.
    I don't mind rachel in x-factor I just can't see her in the current line up getting along with the rest and even rogue kinda outgrew the devil may care attitude/i'm just here for a good time/general chaotic energy from the current team tbh. But that's not say I don't see rogue in x-factor eventually but you're right about rachel's place being in excalibur.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Spinster Sinister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    I don't mind rachel in x-factor I just can't see her in the current line up getting along with the rest and even rogue kinda outgrew the devil may care attitude/i'm just here for a good time/general chaotic energy from the current team tbh. But that's not say I don't see rogue in x-factor eventually but you're right about rachel's place being in excalibur.
    Well I saw Rogue in X-Factor because of how well her powers would lend themselves to investigations, but I guess her powers wouldn't really work on dead people so nvm lololo. But Rogue + Northstar would be a nice reunion and I think she'd play off of Daken well.

    Rachel I think would be a great foil for [A]. Betsy, [A], Rictor, Rachel just seems like a nice core who would bounce off each other well.

  8. #8
    Fantastic Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinster Sinister View Post
    Well I saw Rogue in X-Factor because of how well her powers would lend themselves to investigations, but I guess her powers wouldn't really work on dead people so nvm lololo. But Rogue + Northstar would be a nice reunion and I think she'd play off of Daken well.

    Rachel I think would be a great foil for [A]. Betsy, [A], Rictor, Rachel just seems like a nice core who would bounce off each other well.
    I forgot about northstar and rogue but it would be nice too see them reunited again plus she'd be able to call out jp and daken on their bs and when they're doing too much angsting lol

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member AppleJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    So she basically did want to write an Apocalypse solo... it shows. :/

    I don't know, it shouldn't take 12 issues for us to get pay off on knowing why the characters being used are there. It's long-been past for her to establish why Jubilee, Gambit and Rogue are in Otherworld beyond happenstance.
    Yeah, I listened to this interview and I have to echo these sentiments exactly. 12 issues is way too long to have gotten basically no pay off for Gambit, Rogue, or Jubilee. She's never written an ongoing series before and it shows.

    It seems super clear she wanted to write an Apocalypse story from jump. I just wish they had been a little more honest about what it really was.

    I didn't want to read an Apocalypse book before and I really don't want it now.

    Besides Betsy and Rictor, everyone else feels totally thrown in and have no individuals stakes or purpose.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Milton View Post
    Probably not worth it's own thread, because there isn't much to it, but oh well.

    http://www.xavierfiles.com/2020/09/2...h-tini-howard/

    Some bullet points:

    - Excalibur pitch started by Tini being interested in what happens to Apocalypse in this new era, she thought he would want to go back and reclaim what has been lost over the years.
    - Her interest in mutant magic is more about how magic functions culturally in a society and not so much about fireballs and spells and such.
    - The Excalibur data pages were meant to foreshadow and really only make sense once the story develops. She and the interviewers seem to think that's great.
    - Tini describes her writing story as a long game. She's okay with readers being temporarily confused because she believes the payoff of the build up is worth it. Appreciates readers who are patient and trust her to eventually deliver.
    - The tarot in XoS is less about telling the future and more about explaining the characters and their role. Cards are chosen very purposefully.
    -Listener question answers: Betsy's body swap and issues will be addressed eventually
    - The idea behind [A]'s name is that it is only for mutants, the symbol was designed by Hickman.
    - The Fury might be showing up in Excalibur.
    - the Green Lagoon is mostly run by Fred Blob Dukes, Pixie works there sometimes.

    Hearing about her writing style explains a lot of my frustrations with Excalibur so far. There are a lot of writers who write for the long game, the trades, but that only works when the monthly issues are also satisfying on their own, and to me they mostly aren't. The issues of Excalibur that I have enjoyed most are the ones where things finally come to a head and the plot advances, everything leading up to those two issues reads like poorly executed filler, there isn't even particularly interesting character work to make those between issues compelling. Too many questions with a poor balance of answers being delivered, and once they are they are mostly underwhelming and the characters are being under served by the plot.
    The Betsy body swap and issues will be addressed “eventually”. No.. these are things that should have already been addressed and put to bed. The fact no one wants to just address it and get it done with is annoying.

    No one wants to read a title where you’re constantly confused. She just not a master of weaving subplots or even having a main plot. If you look at Hickman and HOX/POX he placed plots in there that came to fruition. Claremont used to have one or two page interludes that were “random” but actually came to fruition within a few issues. I find it annoying how plots are dropped.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Milton View Post

    - The Excalibur data pages were meant to foreshadow and really only make sense once the story develops. She and the interviewers seem to think that's great.
    - Tini describes her writing story as a long game. She's okay with readers being temporarily confused because she believes the payoff of the build up is worth it. Appreciates readers who are patient and trust her to eventually deliver.

    I'll try not to repeat what others have said to much.

    In general there seems no one, in Marvel, that challenges Tini to become a better writer by adressing very obvious problems. It's okay to focus on the long game but you have to keep the readers enganged, immersed and involved up to that point. Not just trust they are stayiong because some sort of loyality.

    12 issues are a lot. Some of my favorite comics these last years have been given around 14-18 issues before the seemingly unavoidable cancelation. So her view that we should stay patient seems rather tone deaf. Not only because it's seems like a naive view bordering on arrogance but because it just adresses some parts of the problem. Witch just brings it back to that she must have someone who tells her like it is. What works and what doesn't.

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnap22 View Post
    No one wants to read a title where you’re constantly confused. She just not a master of weaving subplots or even having a main plot. If you look at Hickman and HOX/POX he placed plots in there that came to fruition. Claremont used to have one or two page interludes that were “random” but actually came to fruition within a few issues. I find it annoying how plots are dropped.
    Yeah, this is my take. There is a difference between building things up in a story like how Hickman writes his books vs just giving us random data pages that seemingly have nothing to do with the story at hand.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    It's true that some of the magic pages from even Excalibur # 1 didn't really start to make sense until last week's X-Men, but that's frustrating at times.

  14. #14
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    I kind of get what she's saying. Readers are hella impatient.

    The original Phoenix sage took two years to tell. If it was told now for the first time, readers would get bored after a month because there's no "payoff".

    On this board, people complain about books MONTHS before they even come out. Can you imagine making them wait two years for payoff?

    Based one the posts here, no story should gave a long end game because other books get cancelled at 12 issues.
    Last edited by RamaBird; 09-22-2020 at 06:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member ChronoRogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamaBird View Post
    I kind of get what she's saying. Readers are hella impatient.

    The original Phoenix sage took two years to tell. If it was told now for the first time, readers would get bored after a month because there's no "payoff".

    On this board, people complain about books MONTHS before they even come out. Can you imagine making them wait two years for payoff?

    Based one the posts here, no story should gave a long end game because other books get cancelled at 12 issues.
    No one minds waiting for the long-game. Hickman is how you do it right, he's dropping seeds left and right for plots far in the future that people are picking up on.

    CC also had various plot-lines running it once, it wasn't one single plot going on at one time and for multiple characters. It never felt like a chore to drop one arc and to continue into another until it was ready. The characters weren't twiddling their thumbs waiting for the Phoenix Saga to happen.

    Criticisms against Tini follow specifically on her writing weaknesses which seems to IMO display poor characterization, favoritism, poor narrative direction for half the cast, and an incoherent plot.

    Building up to a long game is all well in good, but the journey needs to be entertaining as well or you miss the point of growth in a character and how that adds to a plot.

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