A question about old Tales to Astonish comics.

[babyblob]

As many may know because I talk about it a lot my favorite era of comics in the 1960's Marvel. I just finished reading some comics from 1964. I was loving the Tales to Astonish Giant Man comics but in TTA 70 they dropped him in favor of Sub Mariner. I wanted to know if there was any reason for this.

I mean Antman was one of the first heroes for 60's Marvel, was a founding member of the Avengers. The other Avengers Ironman, Thor, Captain America and even though he was an Avenger for all of two minutes Hulk had his own series again. (Well he shared it in TTA) So why did Marvel drop one of their first heroes? Was he not very popular? Was the demand for Subby so great?

I like Giant Man more then Subby. But I have not read much Silver age and beyond Subs just golden age where he was a cop killing mass murder. I am going to give him a try in TTA maybe I will look better on him. But over all I am not happy with the change.

So why did they do it?

Thanks for the help.

[Reviresco]

As many may know because I talk about it a lot my favorite era of comics in the 1960's Marvel. I just finished reading some comics from 1964. I was loving the Tales to Astonish Giant Man comics but in TTA 70 they dropped him in favor of Sub Mariner. I wanted to know if there was any reason for this.

I mean Antman was one of the first heroes for 60's Marvel, was a founding member of the Avengers. The other Avengers Ironman, Thor, Captain America and even though he was an Avenger for all of two minutes Hulk had his own series again. (Well he shared it in TTA) So why did Marvel drop one of their first heroes? Was he not very popular? Was the demand for Subby so great?

I like Giant Man more then Subby. But I have not read much Silver age and beyond Subs just golden age where he was a cop killing mass murder. I am going to give him a try in TTA maybe I will look better on him. But over all I am not happy with the change.

So why did they do it?

Thanks for the help.

That's not at all what Namor was known for in the Golden Age. Namor killed alot of Nazis and Japanese and Italians, like most of the WWII era superheroes.

You are looking at the Silver Age through modern eyes. Avengers wasn't a huge seller, and a founding member of a group that was, what 2 years old? isn't a big deal. Like you said, Hulk was a founding member.

Besides which, Ant-Man was an Atom rip off. Namor was an original. Ant-Man might have been an early Silver Age superhero, but Namor was the FIRST Marvel superhero. He was also HUGE in the Golden Age, and Golden Age fans, including writers like Stan Lee, loved Namor. At that time, in the beginning, he had far more name recognition than most of the Silver Age characters Stan was creating. Why do you think Namor guest starred in so many early Silver Age books? Why do you think Martin Goodman wanted Stan to restart the superhero line with Namor, Cap and Torch? Namor was a proven seller since 1939.

[babyblob]

That's not at all what Namor was known for in the Golden Age. Namor killed alot of Nazis and Japanese and Italians, like most of the WWII era superheroes.

You are looking at the Silver Age through modern eyes. Avengers wasn't a huge seller, and a founding member of a group that was, what 2 years old? isn't a big deal. Like you said, Hulk was a founding member.

Besides which, Ant-Man was an Atom rip off. Namor was an original. Ant-Man might have been an early Silver Age superhero, but Namor was the FIRST Marvel superhero. He was also HUGE in the Golden Age, and Golden Age fans, including writers like Stan Lee, loved Namor. At that time, in the beginning, he had far more name recognition than most of the Silver Age characters Stan was creating. Why do you think Namor guest starred in so many early Silver Age books? Why do you think Martin Goodman wanted Stan to restart the superhero line with Namor, Cap and Torch? Namor was a proven seller since 1939.

That was why I asked because I did not know he was so popular. I didnt now The Avengers wernt popular. I dont know the sales of the time. I know after his first few appearances in the Golden age he started fighting Nazis and Japan. but his first few issues where he killed three cops in one issue, kidnapped that woman Lynn more then once and tried to force her to become his Queen and Killed the people who came to rescue her and then went on a rampage and attacked New York and battled the Human Torch. it just really took me out of it.

I did like Subby more in his 60's appearances so maybe he will grow on me and I will forget the golden age.

[Digifiend]

Besides which, Ant-Man was an Atom rip off.

True, the golden age Atom appeared in 1940, and the silver age one in October 1961. Hank Pym debuted three months later (January 1962). Seems like Atom relaunched while The Man in the Ant Hill was waiting to be published, and they decided to make Hank a superhero on his second appearance.

[jackolover]

I still smart to remember Giant-Man was cancelled in Tales to Astonish. As a kid at the time, nobody was in comics being a giant, or showing problems of gianting out but Giant-Man. I understand the fact Giant-Man lost big number sales, but he was an iconic character in that he was a detective by occupation, and he was an inventor that had created Ultron eventually. I never liked the rendition of the Hank Pym that slapped Janet van Dyne, or Janet acting like an abused wife, and forgiving Pym. Pym with mental illness coming out in later life never made sense, when Pym was a full member of the Avengers and never had to feel unworthy in front of the others. So I was disappointed the Giant-man series was scrapped at the time. It was only the funny papers, but impression was stronger than economics to the fan base.

[Digifiend]

Hank wasn't a detective, he's a scientist.

[DrNewGod]

Hank wasn't a detective, he's a scientist.

He did some detective work in the series, particularly in his Ant-Man days, but yeah, he was mainly a scientist.

To the OP: size change powers have never been that popular outside of team books. The Atom has always struggled to maintain a series, and I don't know of a giant character that's ever been able to carry a title (Black Goliath didn't last very long).

On top of that, Hank Pym has always been a bit of a problematic character. He was created as a one-off sci-fi/horror mishmash-film knockoff protagonist, and he's been repeatedly retrofitted for attempts at something more compelling over the decades. I like Pym, particularly as Ant-Man, but he simply didn't have as compelling a story as Stark, Parker, or even Namor.

I've sometimes been surprised by how well The Wasp has done over the years (admittedly, mainly in The Avengers). I sometimes wonder if Marvel had created stronger female characters back in the mid-late-1960s, if Jan would be languishing in mediocrity along side Pym.

[Dreaded Porcupine]

I think TTA with Ant-Man/Giant-Man sold as well as TOS, JIM and Strange Tales if you look at Comichron numbers from 63-64. So Hank was right up there with Thor, Iron Man and the Torch. If I remember correctly they were all neck and neck in sales. It’s the Hulk who wasn’t selling well. Marvel should have put two characters in JIM. Hank got the shaft. It should have been Cap/Iron Man in Tales of Suspense. Hulk/Subby Tales to Astonish. Torch/Dr. Strange Strange Tales. Thor/Hank Journey into Mystery. This would have worked perfectly. Of course Tales of Asgard would have been pushed out but I would rather of have had Hank. Poor Hank was shafted throughout his history by Marvel. Even back in the mid 60’s.

I don’t remember seeing Avenger’s numbers in Comichron in the early and mid 60’s. Like DC numbers they are just missing. Is there a site that has accurate sales numbers of the early Avengers? I’m curious how they compared to the FF, Spidey and the other Marvel comics. I can’t see the Avengers selling poorly with Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Giant-Man and the Wasp on the team.

[DrNewGod]

I think TTA with Ant-Man/Giant-Man sold as well as TOS, JIM and Strange Tales if you look at Comichron numbers from 63-64. So Hank was right up there with Thor, Iron Man and the Torch. If I remember correctly they were all neck and neck in sales. It’s the Hulk who wasn’t selling well. Marvel should have put two characters in JIM. Hank got the shaft. It should have been Cap/Iron Man in Tales of Suspense. Hulk/Subby Tales to Astonish. Torch/Dr. Strange Strange Tales. Thor/Hank Journey into Mystery. This would have worked perfectly. Of course Tales of Asgard would have been pushed out but I would rather of have had Hank. Poor Hank was shafted throughout his history by Marvel. Even back in the mid 60’s.

I don’t remember seeing Avenger’s numbers in Comichron in the early and mid 60’s. Like DC numbers they are just missing. Is there a site that has accurate sales numbers of the early Avengers? I’m curious how they compared to the FF, Spidey and the other Marvel comics. I can’t see the Avengers selling poorly with Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Giant-Man and the Wasp on the team.

With those anthology titles, it's hard to tell who was the leader and who was drag (e.g. major changes during introductions, hiatuses, etc.). We also have only fairly narrow view of what letters were telling the editors; we can see what they chose to print, but not what preferences they were seeing in the full range of feedback.

[Panic]

True, the golden age Atom appeared in 1940, and the silver age one in October 1961. Hank Pym debuted three months later (January 1962). Seems like Atom relaunched while The Man in the Ant Hill was waiting to be published, and they decided to make Hank a superhero on his second appearance.

And Doll Man was the original Golden Age shrinking hero, not the Atom.

[Digifiend]

Ah, from Quality Comics, one of the companies later taken over by DC. Of course they didn't own him when they created the Atom. I think saying Ant-Man is an Atom rip-off is fair, as they may have only chosen to bring Hank back as a superhero after Ray Palmer's debut. But the golden age Atom does appear to be a copycat himself, as you're right, Doll Man is a year older.

According to this, Doll Man is actually the eighth costumed, powered superhero ever, after Superman, Amazing Man, Fantom of the Fair, Blue Beetle, The Flame, Shock Gibson, and Human Torch.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Feature_Comics_Vol_1_27

[jackolover]

Hank wasn't a detective, he's a scientist.

That’s mostly his Avengers appearances. In Ant-Man he helped the cops a lot.