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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Thor2014's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    I might be just me, but I was sort of sure I heard something about that. Probably just me.
    I know what you're talking about. E-2 Atlantis was raised to the surface. There's a reference to this in the 70's All-Star Comics revival.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor2014 View Post
    I know what you're talking about. E-2 Atlantis was raised to the surface. There's a reference to this in the 70's All-Star Comics revival.
    Ah, yes, that's it! Thanks, I had forgotten exactly what it was.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    I have only one question. WTF did they have to kill off Helena Wayne and Richard Grayson?? They were two of my top-ten characters of all time.

    I think the whole CoIE idea was based on the ridiculous notion that kids couldn't/wouldn't take interest in a multiverse because it would have been too confusing.

    Grant Morrison was on a Multiverse panel in the most recent DC Fandome and, while everyone else seemed in favor of the CoIE idea of cleaning up what they considered to be a confusing mess, Morrison, clearly irritated, said something like, "Am I the only one that, as a kid, had no trouble at all with the history and actually loved it? I don't think it was too confusing for young readers at all. For my part, it made me more likely to dig into DC history, not less."

    I recognize the irony in citing arguably the most complicated writer in superhero comics to demonstrate that pre-Crisis DC was not confusing. But I had the exact same experience. Every JLA/JSA team-up made me want to know more, more, more about these mysterious characters and I did all I could to collect back-issues so I could know them better. And I was livid when CoIE took that away from me and from every other young fan or not-yet-born fan. It was a matter of talking down to us all, presuming we didn't have the capacity to understand a pretty simple concept: the multiverse. And the pre-Crisis stories were not Morrison-like at all. They were incredibly simple.

    I will never stop harping on what a disastrous decision that series was. It was the first time in DC history that we were told that something we'd read never happened. It was the first real break in continuity in nearly 40 years. And, ever since the original sin of 1985's CoIE, DC has had to correct for that mistake over and over again, because once the "that never happened" toothpaste was out of the tube, there was no way forward but to rejigger continuity every few years. That was wholly unnecessary.

    I don't know what will come of Death Metal but it the "everything happened" idea is what's to come from it, it will be the first time since 1985 that that was true and I'd be a very happy DC fan.

    Sorry to go so far astray from the topic, Bored. I literally cannot see anything about CoIE without repeating the same rant. And to my original point about Huntress and adult Robin: WHY, DC??? WHY???

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    I have only one question. WTF did they have to kill off Helena Wayne and Richard Grayson?? They were two of my top-ten characters of all time.

    I think the whole CoIE idea was based on the ridiculous notion that kids couldn't/wouldn't take interest in a multiverse because it would have been too confusing.

    Grant Morrison was on a Multiverse panel in the most recent DC Fandome and, while everyone else seemed in favor of the CoIE idea of cleaning up what they considered to be a confusing mess, Morrison, clearly irritated, said something like, "Am I the only one that, as a kid, had no trouble at all with the history and actually loved it? I don't think it was too confusing for young readers at all. For my part, it made me more likely to dig into DC history, not less."

    I recognize the irony in citing arguably the most complicated writer in superhero comics to demonstrate that pre-Crisis DC was not confusing. But I had the exact same experience. Every JLA/JSA team-up made me want to know more, more, more about these mysterious characters and I did all I could to collect back-issues so I could know them better. And I was livid when CoIE took that away from me and from every other young fan or not-yet-born fan. It was a matter of talking down to us all, presuming we didn't have the capacity to understand a pretty simple concept: the multiverse. And the pre-Crisis stories were not Morrison-like at all. They were incredibly simple.

    I will never stop harping on what a disastrous decision that series was. It was the first time in DC history that we were told that something we'd read never happened. It was the first real break in continuity in nearly 40 years. And, ever since the original sin of 1985's CoIE, DC has had to correct for that mistake over and over again, because once the "that never happened" toothpaste was out of the tube, there was no way forward but to rejigger continuity every few years. That was wholly unnecessary.

    I don't know what will come of Death Metal but it the "everything happened" idea is what's to come from it, it will be the first time since 1985 that that was true and I'd be a very happy DC fan.

    Sorry to go so far astray from the topic, Bored. I literally cannot see anything about CoIE without repeating the same rant. And to my original point about Huntress and adult Robin: WHY, DC??? WHY???
    I'm just gonna come right out and say it: I think DC lied about why they did COIE. I don't think they got rid of E-2 because they thought it was "too confusing", think they did it because they didn't want the "new" versions of the characters to have to compete with alternate universe versions. You have no reason to accept "new" Superman if the one that's been around since 1938 is still out there.
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  5. #35
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    And DC will answer: Money

    Per issue sales for their flagship series were dropping in favor of newer series like the new teen titans, and management decided that instead of spending money publishing comics for say five different supermen (or any other superhero), it would be more profitable to make only one superman comic that sold five times as much, or maybe even more if they could sell it as being brand new and easy to get into - which is where the part of streamlining history comes into play. Getting rid of the multiverse definitely was´t the fundamental reason behind the project in the first place, just a means to an end.

    What was unexpected was the sucess of COIE itself, spawning what we know today as events. These are by far the biggest source of confusing timelines and erratic storytelling in comics, and more proof of the real underlying reason behind it.
    Last edited by lgcruz; 09-24-2020 at 06:47 PM.

  6. #36
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Sorry to go so far astray from the topic, Bored. I literally cannot see anything about CoIE without repeating the same rant. And to my original point about Huntress and adult Robin: WHY, DC??? WHY???
    Much like the New 52, the Post-Crisis continuity revamp had some significant short term gains, but the long-term harm done was not insignificant. They could have easily culled the Multiverse down to a manageable number, then launched a brand new Earth-0 featuring Byrne's Superman, Miller's Batman, and Perez's Wonder Woman while allowing the best selling of the old Earth-1 titles like New Teen Titans, Legion of the Super-Heroes, and Green Lantern continue the old continuity and also allowing Thomas to keep playing on Earth-2. Then, after about a year of letting the newest Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman find their footing, you do a big crossover with the Earth-1 books instead of lifeless cash-grabs like Millennium.
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 09-25-2020 at 01:21 AM.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    I recognize the irony in citing arguably the most complicated writer in superhero comics to demonstrate that pre-Crisis DC was not confusing. But I had the exact same experience. Every JLA/JSA team-up made me want to know more, more, more about these mysterious characters and I did all I could to collect back-issues so I could know them better. And I was livid when CoIE took that away from me and from every other young fan or not-yet-born fan. It was a matter of talking down to us all, presuming we didn't have the capacity to understand a pretty simple concept: the multiverse. And the pre-Crisis stories were not Morrison-like at all. They were incredibly simple.
    Confusing was just the buzzword they used. There wasn’t anything confusing about the multiverse. It was, however, off-putting to a lot of people who saw it as dumb or silly. I was the only one of my friends who would read DC books at the time, and the perception among others was that there were fifty Supermen or endless variants of every character. That wasn’t true, of course, but it’s what people thought.

    Nowadays everyone “gets” multiverses - it’s not the same impediment it was back then.
    Cheers - CL

  8. #38
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
    Confusing was just the buzzword they used.
    DC thought "the multiverse is confusing" sounded better than "we're in deep doo-doo financially" as the excuse for COIE. Obvioslly, they were right.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    DC thought "the multiverse is confusing" sounded better than "we're in deep doo-doo financially" as the excuse for COIE. Obvioslly, they were right.
    Peasants! i would have gone with "to preserve my bonus", and "to not show weakness" as the reasons.

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