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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman definitely has a better rogues gallery than Flash or GL, but those are still good. Honestly IMO, all the major DC heroes (Superman, Batman, WW, Captain Marvel, GL, Flash and even Aquaman though he's dead last) have better rogues galleries than Iron-Man or most of the individual Avengers.
    No he doesn't. Flash is top three alongside Batman and Spider-Man. Superman is barely in the top five. You take out Luthor and Brainaic and Supes probably barely makes the top ten.

  2. #77
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    No he doesn't. Flash is top three alongside Batman and Spider-Man. Superman is barely in the top five. You take out Luthor and Brainaic and Supes probably barely makes the top ten.
    They were great in Johns ' run along with his expansions to their ranks. But beyond that run, comics wise, not a lot has been done with them that is memorable. And that's only a brief flash in the pan for recent years, beyond that they could be seen as well loved relics of the Silver Age.

    Bizarro is an iconic character that has a Seinfeld episode revolving around him. As Revolutionary_Jack pointed out, Mxy may have been the first of his archetype that shows up in everything from Flinstones to Star Trek. Zod is a fountain of memes. No villain from the Flash has anything like those to their name.

    You take out anyone's arch enemies and they would barely make the top 10. Batman's rogues are great, but all anyone talks about is the Joker anyway.

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The problem is that would appeal to such a limited demographic. I know there are a lot of die hard golden age lovers on this sub, but by and large you guys are very tiny minority when it comes to Superman fans. The general public would hate a SJW Superman and rip the movie to shreds.
    Oh, there's not a ton of people in the world who, if you asked them, would say "I want a Superman movie set in the 40's!"

    But there weren't a ton of people saying "I want a movie about a marketing firm set in the 60's!" either, yet Mad Men was extremely popular. Nobody said "I want a Wonder Woman movie set in World War 1!" for that matter. It's not about giving the audience what they already know they want, it'd be about giving them a fresh perspective and a spin on the character they're not overly familiar with; an alternative to the let down of the last few films. A period piece isnt the only way to do that of course, but it'd be cheaper than a typical Superman film, the old cartoons still linger in the social consciousness so you've got a little bit of positive reinforcement built in, you're distancing yourself from the DCEU....plenty of positive aspects here.

    And OG Superman was barely left of center by today's standards. He wants employees to have safe working conditions and get a decent wage, he doesn't want corrupt businessmen or politicians screwing the little guy over, and he wants husbands to stop beating their wives. Anyone who takes issue with those things are the people Superman would beat up in real life. But even if he was on the SJW spectrum....you really think there isn't a horde of people out there who would eat that up? Yeah Fox News would bitch and moan but...it's Fox News. Nobody gives a sh*t what they think. I'm not advocating a film full of modern leftist social commentary anyway, and wouldn't really want one, but if that were the case? You think everyone protesting and sharing tributes to RBG and fighting against what they see as an inside attack on democracy and equality wouldn't rally behind it? People tried to boycott Black Panther and Captain Marvel too. All that accomplished was a lot of free press.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Iím kinda hoping for an animated Brave & the Bold type Silver Age Superman movie down the line. I think that would be a ton of fun .

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    They were great in Johns ' run along with his expansions to their ranks. But beyond that run, comics wise, not a lot has been done with them that is memorable. And that's only a brief flash in the pan for recent years, beyond that they could be seen as well loved relics of the Silver Age.

    Bizarro is an iconic character that has a Seinfeld episode revolving around him. As Revolutionary_Jack pointed out, Mxy may have been the first of his archetype that shows up in everything from Flinstones to Star Trek. Zod is a fountain of memes. No villain from the Flash has anything like those to their name.

    You take out anyone's arch enemies and they would barely make the top 10. Batman's rogues are great, but all anyone talks about is the Joker anyway.
    Actually, flash villains challenge superman as person and concept. I agree flash has better rogue gallery only because superman's house is in shambles.if superman himself doesn't stand for anything than pseudo moralistic speech giving messiah. Then how can his rogues be good. Lex works cause he is right and wrong.

  6. #81
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I’m kinda hoping for an animated Brave & the Bold type Silver Age Superman movie down the line. I think that would be a ton of fun .
    BvS would have been a lot better if it was a live-action expansion of the "World's Finest" episode from Brave and The Bold.

  7. #82

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    Live action Superman in World War II with his WWII-era powers, hmm, I wonder could that even be green-lit?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    And OG Superman was barely left of center by today's standards. He wants employees to have safe working conditions and get a decent wage, he doesn't want corrupt businessmen or politicians screwing the little guy over, and he wants husbands to stop beating their wives. Anyone who takes issue with those things are the people Superman would beat up in real life. But even if he was on the SJW spectrum....you really think there isn't a horde of people out there who would eat that up? Yeah Fox News would bitch and moan but...it's Fox News. Nobody gives a sh*t what they think. I'm not advocating a film full of modern leftist social commentary anyway, and wouldn't really want one, but if that were the case? You think everyone protesting and sharing tributes to RBG and fighting against what they see as an inside attack on democracy and equality wouldn't rally behind it? People tried to boycott Black Panther and Captain Marvel too. All that accomplished was a lot of free press.
    There may well be an audience for an 'SJW Superman', but it would be a pretty limited audience. Though I guess time, and the future of American politics, will tell. But the idea that the future of all media is left-wing is far from an objective truth - as the networks who scrambled to cancel their cop shows and then lost most of their viewership would testify.

    Black Panther really isn't the left-wing political commentary that people seem to think of it as. Yes, in the real-world, it has become a great symbol of black cultural power, and rightly so. But the movie itself presents the violent black militant seeking to forcibly topple the status quo through armed struggle as the villain (albeit a sympathetic villain). Ultimately, Black Panther's real appeal is the fact that its a damn good movie, period.

    As far as Captain Marvel goes, its a decent movie IMO, but nothing special. And again, while a lot of the marketing around it was centered around feminism and women's empowerment, the film itself doesn't really dive too deep into feminist politics, or any kind of politics for that matter.

  9. #84
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    There may well be an audience for an 'SJW Superman', but it would be a pretty limited audience. Though I guess time, and the future of American politics, will tell. But the idea that the future of all media is left-wing is far from an objective truth - as the networks who scrambled to cancel their cop shows and then lost most of their viewership would testify.

    Black Panther really isn't the left-wing political commentary that people seem to think of it as. Yes, in the real-world, it has become a great symbol of black cultural power, and rightly so. But the movie itself presents the violent black militant seeking to forcibly topple the status quo through armed struggle as the villain (albeit a sympathetic villain). Ultimately, Black Panther's real appeal is the fact that its a damn good movie, period.

    As far as Captain Marvel goes, its a decent movie IMO, but nothing special. And again, while a lot of the marketing around it was centered around feminism and women's empowerment, the film itself doesn't really dive too deep into feminist politics, or any kind of politics for that matter.
    How do we measure ahead of time if it is limited? It's not like many people are aware of the character's roots to begin with. We'd need a big media push that a movie provides to remind/inform people.

    Ultimately it matters if it's a good movie, but the Champion of the Oppressed take doesn't lend itself to automatically being a worse movie than anything else. People who would attack the idea of it before seeing it are likely a vocal minority who aren't worth appealing to anyway (again, see the people who boycotted Star Wars because it had black people in it instead of any of the other valid reasons). Everyone else, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, will probably be neutral until the movie comes out and succeeds or fails at being entertaining.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How do we measure ahead of time if it is limited? It's not like many people are aware of the character's roots to begin with. We'd need a big media push that a movie provides to remind/inform people.

    Ultimately it matters if it's a good movie, but the Champion of the Oppressed take doesn't lend itself to automatically being a worse movie than anything else. People who would attack the idea of it before seeing it are likely a vocal minority who aren't worth appealing to anyway (again, see the people who boycotted Star Wars because it had black people in it instead of any of the other valid reasons). Everyone else, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, will probably be neutral until the movie comes out and succeeds or fails at being entertaining.
    I agree, most people would be neutral about it at first.

    It really comes down to how they portray a 'Golden Age' Superman.

    I think Superman beating up wife-beaters will get cheers from the audience. Superman threatening to drop corrupt politicians from a building as well.

    Superman supporting rioting and the destruction of private property? Maybe not.

    And again, I feel the appeal of a Superman period piece is more in the aesthetics than the political commentary. BTAS is not really about the politics of Batman in 1939. Its about setting Batman in a noir-ish Art Deco world that visually mirrors the era of his origin.

  11. #86
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I agree, most people would be neutral about it at first.

    It really comes down to how they portray a 'Golden Age' Superman.

    I think Superman beating up wife-beaters will get cheers from the audience. Superman threatening to drop corrupt politicians from a building as well.

    Superman supporting rioting and the destruction of private property? Maybe not.

    And again, I feel the appeal of a Superman period piece is more in the aesthetics than the political commentary. BTAS is not really about the politics of Batman in 1939. Its about setting Batman in a noir-ish Art Deco world that visually mirrors the era of his origin.
    He wouldn't support the rioting. If we're being true to Clark's character though, he'd 100% support the peaceful protests and want to aid in weeding out the corruption that they are protesting against and bring about change.

    A similar visual retro aesthetic for Superman that Batman got is what I'd love, but I don't think you'd have to abandon some of the political commentary. Even if it takes place in an ambiguous time period, he can put the fear of God into domestic abusers and would not automatically side which cops. He is a vigilante after all. The ability for a filmmaker to pull it off tastefully is the main concern, not putting it in there at all.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    While I love period pieces, making the next Superman film one would just validate every ascertion that he's relic of yesteryear that isn't relevant in the modern day. After we have a successful modern take on Superman, absolutely. Until then? I'd rather we try and prove to the general audience that he matters rather than just some good ol' boy of a forgotten era.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    There may well be an audience for an 'SJW Superman', but it would be a pretty limited audience. Though I guess time, and the future of American politics, will tell. But the idea that the future of all media is left-wing is far from an objective truth - as the networks who scrambled to cancel their cop shows and then lost most of their viewership would testify.
    Who's saying the future of all media is left wing? I'm not talking about all media, I'm talking about a hypothetical superhero movie/show. Oh, just so there's no misunderstanding about any potential agenda here, I'm not a democrat. I'm a political independent and I loathe both parties pretty much equally.

    Oh and I don't disagree with your assessment of Black Panther or Captain Marvel, but all that is beside the point; a good chunk of people tried to crush those movies and the films still each broke a billion.

    I'm not advocating a movie where, I dunno, Clark fights for open borders and letting non-citizens vote or whatever the SJW talking points are now. What I'm saying is that a return to the Champion of the People would be popular. A Superman who goes after crap bosses and corrupt business/political leaders.....the vast majority of people won't see that as a partisan issue, they'll just see it as a superhero who's actively trying to make life better for the regular person. Whether you vote blue or red, most of us are struggling to pay the bills and are sick of dealing with jackasses above us.

    But if you have Superman take down a corrupt politician in a modern setting, there's some very vocal people who would spin it as an attack on donald trump, whether there's actually a basis for that claim or not. The same story set in the 40's? Won't get the same kind of heat; the different setting, even though it's based on actual history, shifts the narrative into the realm of allegory and people don't usually take that as personally. Worked for Star Trek in the 60's, it'd work for Clark today.

    Here's an example; not too long ago one of the monthlies had Clark save some Mexicans from getting hurt. No political statement, no big commentary, Clark just saved some people. The right wing talking heads lost their f*cking minds about it, because they thought it was an attack on their politics. Smashes the Klan, on the other hand, is an actual commentary and damn few people have bitched about it. Why? Because saving Mexicans in 2018 or whenever it was hits a lot closer to home than saving a Chinese family in 1944. Of course, Smash is a much higher quality book anyway but the people who bitch about stuff like this aren't reading in the first place.

    Allegory. That's all it boils down to. The more removed from the modern day, the stronger the allegory can be. Such a tale could be told with blue aliens, or monsters living in the center of the earth, or whatever. But a period piece is a hell of a lot cheaper to make.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #89
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    .

    Allegory. That's all it boils down to. The more removed from the modern day, the stronger the allegory can be. Such a tale could be told with blue aliens, or monsters living in the center of the earth, or whatever. But a period piece is a hell of a lot cheaper to make.
    That's my thinking as well. By making Superman a period character, it would free creators up to make more a stronger statement than they'd be able to if it was set in today's overtly politicized world in which wearing a mask to protect others is inexplicably a political statement

    In my experience, you often don't see people changing their minds by talking about something that's very close to them, but allegory works like a charm. Star Wars being a great example.

    Granted, the outrage by the more toxic elements of Star Wars fandom proved that a lot of people clearly missed what Lucas was trying to say in his story about a racially diverse band of misfits led by women fighting against an all white regime of fascists
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 09-29-2020 at 04:08 PM.

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, people are gonna bitch no matter what. It'll be the left or the right or one demographic or another, who knows? But without fail, any project will upset some moron who will complain loudly about it online and try to convince others that they're right. And a project, Superman or not, in most cases *should* piss off someone. If you're not offending someone, you're not saying anything. And I'm not saying Superman should piss off the right or any other group (beyond the corrupt anyway) but I definitely think, right now, we need a Superman who means something again, and says something worth hearing. And in today's world, that'll piss off some snowflake group who can't stand the idea of other people thinking differently or see everything as a personal attack, no matter what the message is. But you set the film somewhere other than today's world? Backlash won't be nearly as bad. Allegory works.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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